Last winter I succumbed to temptation and picked up a older Remington 870 Express for a hair over $200 including tax. Normally I would have passed on it however it was not a plain 870 but a Super Magnum version. I had always wanted a 10ga. shotgun but could never justify it due to cost of and scarcity if ammo. So the next best thing was a 12ga shotgun with a 3-1/2" chamber.
Even better was it being old enough to have a milled non-MIM extractor. But new enough to have the anti-jam carrier .
The nice thing is I can run 2-3/4" shells all day long if I want or 3" or 3-1/2". Not sure about them mini shells but it ain't picky so far. Point being it'll chamber any 12ga round in the North America that's available. So although I didn't exactly get this as a "peppers pal" it does have some speak in that department.
What I had in mind was a multi purpose shot gun but mainly for rural home defense. And taking the occasional varmint.
So I went to work on it to make it more suitable for my uses. First I did some serious measuring to determine barrel length and magazine capacity; what was arrived at was 20-3/4" for the barrel to allow for a magazine capacity of 5 3-1/2" shells. For around the home I load in the magazine 6 Winchester 2-3/4" 00 Buck then one 3-1/2" 00 Buck round. But now back to the modifications .
Once the barrel was trimmed back thanks to the vent rib, and maybe the stock, it was shooting low l. So the rib needed to be trimmed down some, still need to retest the shot pattern. I also installed a smaller and lower fiber optic front bead. The wood stock and forend were replaced with a Magpul stock and a Houge rubberized forend. Then I parkerized the steel parts. I did leave the trigger and trigger guard assembly alone for now as I want to replace it with a polymer one. And since it is Aluminum the parkerizing solution would eat it to pieces.
Anyway here is the little monster so far:
if you've shortened the barrel, don't expect standard 00 to be waf beyond 25 yds. and maybe not worth much at 20 yds, either. The 000 3.5" load might do ok to 35 yds, but I bet that's the max and it might well be marginal at 30 yds, depending on several variables
Right now the choke if you could call it that is Improved Cylinder using a choke gauge.
I'm also pondering getting the barrel threaded for choke tubes but not sure if I want to screw around with them .
[QUOTE=boati;289545]if you've shortened the barrel, don't expect standard 00 to be waf beyond 25 yds. and maybe not worth much at 20 yds, either. The 000 3.5" load might do ok to 35 yds, but I bet that's the max and it might well be marginal at 30 yds, depending on several variables[/QUOTE]
John - please for the umpteenth time, please join those of us in the real world. Shotgun barrel length has very little to do with pattern size. The most relevant factors are choke type, shot cup type, and buffering or lack thereof. Testing various loads and picking the right one for your gun is what smart people do.
How about a 14" cylinder-bore gun, getting 3-inch patterns at 40 feet with 00 buck magnums? That equates to less than a foot of spread at 50 yards. Hardly ineffective.
With different loads, spread can be very different. That example above is with Hornady TAP. Same gun does 10 inches at 10 yards with Remington, and 7" with Federal's 'low recoil' 00 buck stuff. So with various 00 buck loads, the same short-barrel shotgun patterns anywhere from the oft-quoted "inch spread per yard" or 100MOA, all the way down to around a very-tight 22MOA; just by virtue of changing WHICH particular 00 buck ammo you load it with.
That's why testing and actual shooting are better than empty pontifications. And if a person can't do their own testing and shooting, that's ok. A person can still look things up [I][U]as long as they're genuinely interested in learning[/U][/I], a concept toward which you've repeatedly demonstrated a knee-jerk hostility.
Think of it in visual terms. At 20 yards from the muzzle on a 28" gun, a particular round gives "X" size pattern. Now assume everything else is equal - ie, same ammo, same exact barrel quality and diameter, same choke, same everything except barrel length. If the gun has a 14" barrel instead of 28", it doesn't cause the equivalent of twice as much spread, it gives the same spread increase as if the guy shooting the 28" gun simply shot from 14 inches further away from the target; nothing more.
Did you know that with some loads, pattern size will actually INCREASE as barrel length increases? True story - if you're interested in learning the "why" of it, ask and maybe someone will explain it to you.
And fwiw, I'm not a shotgun expert by any stretch; this is sophomore-level stuff.
Geometry says that if you've got tight patterns at a distance, you dont have the spread you want up close, so it might as well be a rifle, with a silencer and have all the advantages of the rifle. grow up. Choosing a shotgun is the mark of the guy who's too cheap/lazy to practice enough with the rifle and that's all it will ever be. it's a waste of time and money. Practicing with it is time and money that you should have been spending on the pistol or the rifle, since the shotgun can't replace either one.
[QUOTE=boati;291523]Geometry says that if you've got tight patterns at a distance, you dont have the spread you want up close...[/quote]
True. Which of course has nothing to do with your original assertion that a shortening the barrel means you can't GET acceptably tight groups:
[QUOTE=boati;289545]if you've shortened the barrel, don't expect standard 00 to be waf beyond 25 yds. [/quote]
I was simply pointing out the easily-demonstrated reality that your assumption (the same assumption made by a lot of people uneducated on the subject), is wrong. While it's an understandable mistake, it's definitely a mistake.
And on this part:
[QUOTE=boati;291523]...grow up. Choosing a shotgun is the mark of the guy who's too cheap/lazy to practice enough with the rifle and that's all it will ever be...[/QUOTE]
Wow. This isn't even ignorance; it's reflexive animosity toward something you have just chosen to categorize as a bad idea.
You're a fan of James Yeager, and these are his own words on the subject:
[quote]"My pick for home defense is a Remington 870 shotgun, with full-power buckshot. I've got slugs in the sidesaddle. And I can't think of anything in the parameters of my house that would be more lethal and more able to protect me and my family." - James Yeager[/quote]
Clint Smith has said "the shotgun is an expert's weapon, not a beginner's weapon". Personally I prefer a handgun or carbine. So your argument isn't with me; it's with the experts in the field.
i"m no fan of yeager/s. He's just realized, after 16 years, that I'm right, that's all. I was into canned CAR015's 40 years ago. While yeager was still riding bicycles. People are just ignorant to "think" that they can TELL when they'll need more reach, penetration and mag capacity than the shotgun offers, and that around the house, they'll have TIME to go get any gun. Wear it, or you wont HAVE it when it's needed. The rifle is for shtf, the pistol is for normal times and the shotgun's a toy.
[QUOTE=boati;291761]i"m no fan of yeager/s He's just realized, after 16 years, that I'm right, that's all....[/QUOTE]
You really don't remember what you say from one day to another, do you? You've specifically said we need him in leadership at the NRA; hardly the position of a non-fan. Fwiw, remembering what we said is one huge benefit that grownups realize about telling the truth. With only one story to remember, it makes life much easier.
That said... So you now claim that James Yeager has realized you're right and jumped on board with your views? :laugh: Not to bust your bubble but I suspect he doesn't know you exist; anymore than he knows that I do.
For that matter, how can you say he's "realized that you're right", when he says the exact opposite of what you say about so many topics? Not only does he choose the shotgun over the rifle as a home-defense gun, he calls 18 inches the "perfect AR" barrel length; and only recommends sub-16" barrels on AR's for people too weak or small in stature for the normal barrel length.
He also says that if you get a silencer, get a .308 version, since it will work on both and is more versatile than a .223-only version.
On AR sights, he says a dot with flip-away magnifier is "the absolute best setup" for a defensive or fighting AR; not anything like your preferred variable scope. I used to really like the low-power variable scope on my AR's, but after timing myself with both, I've come to accept the fact that a dot is measurably faster while still being plenty accurate. Since 'speed of hits' is one of your most common diatribes, to be intellectually honest would require you to accept it as well.
See how simple that is? On shotguns, he doesn't think you're right. On AR barrel length, he doesn't think you're right. On AR sights, he doesn't think you're right. On silencers, he doesn't think you're right.
So no, he clearly has not jumped on your bandwagon, "realizing that you're right" after all this time. That's the problem with now trying to claim kinship with currently-known gun guys instead of just gun guys from the 70's. It's a lot easier to see - and demonstrate - how incorrect so many of your claims are.
Personally, I agree with you on choosing the AR over a shotgun as my preferred gun. But that doesn't mean I'm going to spout lies about other people recommending it when they don't.
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