andy

by such impacts. The closer the impact occurs to the gun, the worse and the sooner the deflection. The closer to the edge of the twig that the impact occurs, the worse the deflection. So all you can do in brush is shoot a lot, and it's better done with the 223, cause you can carry twice as much of it. There's no such thing as a "brush bucking" bullet.

RIKA

andy/"erika" says, "penetration of brush is a myth. all bullets r deflected. There's no such thing as a "brush bucking" bullet."

While deflection does exist, it is obvious to our troubled confused friend that he has no experience with really heavy bullets. Poor fella.

RIKA

Hard Rock

Hey Gunkid, your inexperience is showing greatly.

Mike

Rich Z

Thanks go to you all who have tainted a perfectly informative and interesting thread with your derogatory and off topic postings. It is greatly appreciated..... not.

Oh yes, and thanks for wasting my time having to go through and delete that garbage as well.

brass hammer

HA! AND ME A MEMBER OF THE LOCAL CIVICS SOCIETY! uke02:



THANKS.

Magnum88C

Don't feel bad, BH, I think my last deletion was the apology for the first deletion.

How bad is that? I'm so f-ed up, my apology gets deleted!

RIKA

Being deleted is better than a stick in the eye. Very few of us have escaped the deadly delete button.

RIKA

.45 COLT

He may be irritating sometimes, but don't knock him when he's right. (Except that comment about a .223 being a better choice).

DC

Aslan

He's right to a point. For example, the deflection may not be critical if you are immeadiately behind the brish in question. 4" of deflection may still keep the bullet on target.

The type of brush also makes a difference and how far beyond the brush your intended target is. The closer to the actual brush the target is, the less impact the deflections are likely to have. You're not going to have any target accuracy, but you might still be MOM (minute of man) in accuracy, which is all you need.

Also, cover doesn't automatically mean brush.

So, if someone is shooting at you from behind brush, then you shouldn't shoot back?

I think the answer is yes you shoot back. (and with much vigor)

Sure the brush will deflect the shots. How much and whether or not it is a factor are valid considerations. But again, what is cover to a .223 is merely concealment to a .308.


Just my two cents...

.45 COLT

I should have edited the quote to read only the last line.
There's no such thing as a "brush bucking" bullet.
He's right there. There isn't. And, yeah, I'd shoot back. A bunch. Heavier, slower bullet would be better, but if brush, twigs, whatever is close to the shooter, then any hit out at say 100 yards would be luck.

DC

TODD 3465

However how about object penetration like tree trunks?

Aslan

That's just it, the 7.62 will out penetrate the .223.

But no one advocates wasting ammo shooting through barricades without good reason....

Magnum88C

Not to mention the ever present concrete wall. If someone is shooting at you from behind one, I'd sure want a .30 cal that will go through it, rather than 2x as many poodle poppers that won't.

Glenn Bartley

I don't know about there not being a bullet that can slice through the brush at least to some good effect. I have seen some heavy rifle rounds go through heavy brush, where twigs have flown as the bullet passed, and the round still hit the target. There is also the 12 gauge slug, which will often do likewise. To imply that a round will not penetrate brush and still get to the target would void the knowledge of scores of shooting/hunting experts who recommend heavier rounds for hunting in heavy cover. Sorry, but any advice to the contrary just will not get my confidence when for years I have been reading, learning and shooting to obtain results that go against this particular idea of his.

Of course, I am not saying that any specific round will go through all types or thicknesses of brush, but there are certainly heavier rounds that are much more likely to penetrate brush than is the lightweight poodle shooter .223.

Best regards,
Glenn B
As for the concrete wall, be careful of shooting through it, you may just wind up capping the small child who the bad guy was holding hostage - BUT yes the point on that was well taken by me. I have also seen 12 gauge slugs work wonders on concrete block walls. A 12 gauge shotgun can make an effective wall breachig tool too.

Magnum88C

Glenn, I was thinking of the wreckage of a concrete wall, from where a building used to be, the bad guy using what is left for cover.

Guess I had Iraq and Somalia on the brain.

Glenn Bartley

I kinda of knew that, but sometimes have to kibitz anyhow...

andy

pretty stupid to try shooting up a wall with nothing but a rifle, That's for the belt feds ,IF you have enough ammo to WASTE.you have no CLUE where that guy is behind that wall, and he could EASILY move back where you shot up the wall already, by crawling thru all the dust you are making. :-)

The issue has already been PROVEN to be what I said. Even 12 ga slugs are deflected, PLENTY, and the closer to the gun the brush is, the worse the deflection. Also, the more towards the edge of the twig the bullet impacts, the worse the deflection. Build a dowel box, sometime, and fire ENOUGH rds, under CONTROLLED circumstances, CHECKING what's what, with the impacts on the dowels, close to edge, etc, and you'll KNOW that I'm right, instead of THINKING that I'm wrong. There's no such THING as a "brush bucking" bullet. there's only getting LUCKY with solid hits on twigs, or missing all twigs completely, or having the target be VERY CLOSE behind whatever brush is hit.

brass hammer

consider, the flight of the arrow!

i missed a 'horse' sized whitetail once[at80-90yards]
i was injun creptin' along a upstream, flowing stream, knowing my bow, the over head cover wrecked my shot, [waist/shoulder, height]

it was the biggest buck deer i have ever seen to date!

the projectile[arrow] skinned off to mars? , was all i could tell!

over head 'cover' was within' 6'[leafs/limbs/twigs!



alas! i only thought that buck was MINE!


he was a damn fine one.



thank you.

Garand

back to the top

Dorobuta

good food for thought. Generally, the NATO 7.62 bullet is over constructed.

Using a polymer tipped 7.62 is a very effective round on man or beast. You can get rounds that fragment very easily and you can get rounds that retain 90% of their weight, and everything in-between.

Barnes has some bullets designed to open nicely and still keep a lot of weight. Hornaday and Nosler have some that will explosively fragment, and still have enough weight in the base to do serious damage.

if you're not relegated to only the NATO offerings, there's a ton of good choices in any of the military calibers.