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Old 05-10-2005, 12:41 AM   #141
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Let me know what you think of them. If you need more, I have a BUNCH of them.

I paid $1 each for them.......
 
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Old 05-11-2005, 08:39 PM   #142
 
Joined: May 2005

Posts: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7of7
I fired the full range loads with the AA7, sent the data to Johan, and this is the response I received:

Thanks for the feedback and co-operation.
You’re latest data shows that AA 7 is closer to the factory powder than AA5.
The 6.9grains load is about were you should settle for good all round performance.
You can experiment with AA5 if you want, but I would be reluctant.
Since this is such a sensitive caliber the faster powder will even be less forgiving.
You will have to extremely careful, because things will happen much faster.
I suggest between 5.0 and 6.2grains of AA 5.


The load information:

Hornady V-Max 35 grain
6.9 grains AA7
CCI 400 Primer (small rifle)
COL: 1.46 inches
Case trimmed to 1.127
1884 FPS
-------------

Okies for all of us "special Ed's" out here who dont load but would like to start since this is a pain of a round to find... I need a full itemized list of all the tools necc to reload the 5.7. I mean the loader trimmer, case holder, etc etc. I see diff names of dies and such but when I go to huntingingtons .. they dont list the exac name of 5.7. As I said I dont reload yet but have a friend who will help me with a shopping list and teaching lessons. He just asked me to pick your brain on all the needed hardware you use. I would like to use a reloader that could do .45 also.. so I guess a multi cal loader would work. Thanks
Fxds
 
Old 05-12-2005, 01:15 AM   #143
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I have the RCBS Rock Chucker Supreme Press Master Kit,(Midway #646599) and some other additional equipment I have purchased a little at a time. There is a nice accessory kit that RCBS has (Midway #217150) wich would be nice, however you can probably find a set of digital calipers at a pawn shop alot cheaper.
Any one of the kits that include everything you need to get going less dies will work with this round,...
Midway USA sells the dies and shell holder for the 5.7 X 28 cartridge, but they are on backorder. (midway # 898486 and # 816782)
I would highly recommend a case trimmer for this cartridge. I have the RCBS Trim Pro, and I had to make my own plate for this case. This is easy to use, and trims very accurately.
Unfortunately, no one is making progressive reloader shell plates for this case,...yet.
There really isn't anything special other than the dies, shell holder, and trim plate. Just the basic beginner equipment will do well for you.
 
 
Old 05-12-2005, 08:00 AM   #144
 
Joined: May 2005

Posts: 55
Ahhh part numbers.. wonderful! Thanks a bunch. Now to start shopping ). BTW I found a guy selling once shot brass on EBAY under "5.7" sporting goods. Should be on the first or second page of golf clubs. Prices where around $22 per 100 inc shipping, buy more and price went down but shipping went up. An another 3 people are selling 35grain vmax bullets. I bought some brass.. might as well get some bullets. Since I have no idea if the prices are fair I might a well just buy a few at a time. Just another question... how many times can the brass be reloaded before its trash. I assume that by trimming it its getting thinner and the metal is getting hard. Will annealing be required eventually? Thanks
Fxds
 
Old 05-12-2005, 11:50 AM   #145
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Check this for brass
100 pieces
500 pieces
1000 pieces
 
Old 05-12-2005, 11:54 PM   #146
 
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Yup... thats the guy.. I bought 2 bags of 100 from him. With shipping to me since Alaska is a foriegn country, total price was around $44.
 
Old 05-13-2005, 12:15 AM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fxds
Yup... thats the guy.. I bought 2 bags of 100 from him. With shipping to me since Alaska is a foriegn country, total price was around $44.
Next time you have someone ship you something, request that they use USPS Flat rate service. They have to use the free usps boxes, and then give them about 7.10 for the shipping,.... for any weight as long as it fits in the box, and it is less than 70 lbs.
He shipped me some extras too.... nice surprise,....
 
Old 05-23-2005, 07:25 PM   #148
 
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Hey RichZ. All mine came in and yup I was hosed. They are your second batch pictures except mine are cleaner and well tumbled. I took a nail and poked in the inside and crumbled out the tumbling media and hit the steel tip. But its hollow and all of them have the cannalure. Well.. I guess I can make some earrings out of them and sell them at gunshows.
 
Old 05-23-2005, 07:38 PM   #149
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I filed a complaint against that guy with the US Postal service for fraud. Also filed a complaint with the BBB in his area for his business he runs.

Did you file a complaint with GunBroker and leave negative feedback for the guy? I've noticed he is back on there selling what are supposed to be special experimental AP .223 rounds. Probably just regular SS109s that are moly coated, in my opinion.
 
Old 05-23-2005, 08:27 PM   #150
 
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Posts: 296
hey just a heads up gun broker will not come to the buyers rescue......
.... they follow the $$$$. and flat out won't respond if they know they are wrong. used to use them will not use them for anything anymore.
sean
 
Old 05-23-2005, 10:41 PM   #151
 
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Posts: 9
If he sold the ammo as a business, you could also file a complaint with the attorney general's office. http://www.ag.state.oh.us/index.asp

Realize the BBB is made up by the business owners, and in the past have found them to be completely useless.

Also, small claims court is an option as well. He did not specify in the auction that you have to use his locality for court. You could file a claim against him, then it would be up to him to appear in court or file a change of venue. Either way, it would cost him considerable legal fees to change to his hometown.

I did that with a computer I bought off an online auction and the guy never showed up. I won the case and judgement was for the complete cost of the system and legal fees to file the case. I then sent him a certified letter showing him the judgement and giving him 30 days to respond before I contacted his sheriffs department. I received a check in 5 days after the letter was delivered.
 
Old 05-24-2005, 12:47 AM   #152
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Mickey,
Great advice for all of us who buy things online. Hopefully, that will work for Rich.
 
Old 05-24-2005, 06:29 AM   #153
 
Joined: May 2005

Posts: 55
Except this is where I think we are screwed. Read the name of the auction an then read his deceptive description.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?item=30475296
Now that I know better, I notice that he never mentions the hollowed out bullet with no lead to get to the 34grain weight. I dont have a scale yet so I cant weigh them to see if his weight matches his description. His whole defense is ignorance. With all his ? marks in his auction. i am posting a related comment in Darkwolfs Tung post.
Fxds
Look what I found after scrolling through 18pages of A+ crap.. to bad it cant be seen due to age.
mp5sdnk A+(1) 08/15/2003 06:14 AM 9404423 Seller
F: BEWARE!!! BEWARE!!! AMMO WAS SS109 REMARKED TO AP BLACK TIP!! REFUND WAS NEVER SENT!!! THIS MAN LIES!!! BEWARE!!!!!!!!

Last edited by Fxds; 05-24-2005 at 06:45 AM.
 
Old 05-24-2005, 10:58 AM   #154
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From: Probably washing the vette....

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When did you actually get your projectiles? I sent him the following email dated April 27th, so if yours were shipped after that date, he DEFINITELY knew they were bogus. His continuing to ship them out is plainly evidence of fraud.
Quote:
----- Original Message -----
From: serpenco
To: James Modon
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 3:17 AM
Subject: Re: Question regarding GunBroker.com Item 30475296


James,

I just received the package today and inspected the contents.

I checked these supposedly 5.7x28 pr AP projectiles and I don't believe that is what they really are. I believe they are just 5.56 SS109 projectiles with the lead melted out of the base. For one thing, I did some checking around and REAL 5.7x28 projectiles do not have a cannelure, and these projectiles you sent match up PERFECTLY with some SS109 projectiles that I have here. The base of the projectile is nothing but a HUGE hole, leaving just the steel insert in place. Matter of fact, in some of them I can see corn cob media from being tumbled, evidently to remove the green paint (in my opinion) on the tip and likely evidence of the jacket being heated.

I took some closeup photos and posted them up on my ArmsLocker forum. https://www.armslocker.com/forums/sho...177#post137177. Post #123 if you care to look them over.

Although I can admire the amount of work someone must have done to do something like this, my fear is that these things will be so imbalanced that they will keyhole like crazy if I were to load them up and actually shoot them. In fact, they may even be dangerous to the shooter (me!) in that the nearly hollow projectile may simply burst from the pressure when the propellant gases enter it, causing who knows what to happen to that gun. Certainly there won't be much of a chance at all that the projectile will hit anything I am aiming at. And with the prices of FN FiveseveNs going through the roof after FN shutting down sales to the public, this will just be an unacceptable risk to take with possible damage being caused to the gun. Not to mention some liability on your part for selling such things.

But in any event, I paid for REAL 5.7x28 AP projectiles, not these homebrew modified SS109 projectiles. I am requesting a return of this merchandise that is not what I had ordered and expected to have received, for a full refund of the money I paid for them.

I hope we can accomplish this without any rancor or bad blood developing.

Thanks.
I also contacted GunBroker about this guy and mentioned the details of what I had gotten. Their response was not very satisfactory.

Quote:
Closed Tuesday, April 26, 2005 Issue #37035
Subject: Fraud

Item Number: 30475296



4/26/2005 3:46:18 PM
Rich Z
I would like to be able to contact the buyers of this item being sold to them concerning the accuracy of what this seller is actually selling. I have received some myself (I bought a LARGE lot of them) and I have my doubts about what they really are. As such I would like to contact those buyers to see if they received the same thing before I take any further steps in this matter.

FYI, my opinion is that these supposedly 5.7x28 projectiles are actually homebrew modified 5.56 SS109 projectiles that will not only NOT work properly when loaded, but may actually be dangerous to the shooter and quite possibly damage the gun they are fired in. At the very least I would like to let those people know about such a situation.

Anyway the buyers are as follows:

Seller: boggman

Buyer: mopar528
Buyer: 97Fxds
Buyer: spartafg
Buyer: Carcano2

Thanks.




5/5/2005 10:12:12 AM
GBSupport1012
Thank you for your feedback.



5/6/2005 5:34:08 PM
Rich Z
What the heck kind of answer is that?



5/6/2005 6:48:47 PM
GBSupport1012
It means Thank you for your comments. We will address the issue, however our privacy policy strictly limits what we tell you that we told them. See?
Thanks again!
 
Old 05-24-2005, 07:37 PM   #155
 
Joined: May 2005

Posts: 55
The box was postmarked on May19, '05 from Cadiz, OH. I was really late sending payment and about 3 days late on reading your post. Have you tried to contact the other buyers? I am deciding on what to pursue , if you dont mind I'll just follow your path.
fxds
 
Old 05-24-2005, 09:25 PM   #156
 
Joined: Feb 2005

Posts: 9
Rich Z: Unfortunately the email doesn't matter. He can easily say he didn't get it. If you are looking at legal action, then you need to send him a certified letter with signature. In the letter state who you are, what you purchased and for how much. state what you expected according to his sales ad on the auction and what you received. State what you expect. Give him a time frame to reply, usually thirty days from receipt of letter. Inform him that you would like to settle this without legal action, but if unable to, then you will pursue it.

His statement in the auction:
"I am not really sure where these came from. They are copper jacketed steel core bullets. I was told that they were hand pulled from FN 5.7x28 rounds." Shows that he was clearly selling these as 5.7x28 rounds. No where does he state that they could be something different and therefore according to Ohio consumer law he made a misleading statement. Further, since you are unable to use the bullets, you are unable to receive a benefit from the purchase. Both of these fall under the unconscionable sales practice and warrents a complaint to the attorney general's office.
For review of consumer law, check out http://www.ag.state.oh.us/online_pub...merlawsWEB.pdf


Also, you might want to contact the other sellers (fxdfs?) and see if they would be interested in joining you and add there name and contact information to the letter, as well as the complaint to the attorney general's office. It is easy to say, that there was just a misunderstanding between you and the seller, but when more people are on board, it better proves that he was actively misleading the buyer.
 
Old 05-25-2005, 06:07 AM   #157
 
Joined: May 2005

Posts: 55
Sounds like we have a legal eagle aboard =D! Thanks M223, I'm on board Rich.
Fxds
 
Old 05-25-2005, 11:17 AM   #158
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OK, I contacted one other guy on that list who bought projectiles from Mr. Modon to see if he wants to join in with this. I'll get a letter typed up and sent off via registered mail to start rolling this ball along. I have an attorney in Ohio who is also a gun nut like me, so I am sure he will be willing to help out if needed. Matter of fact, I talked him into buying a FiveseveN recently..... I'll have to ask him what he thinks a box of 5.7x28 TRACER ammo is worth these days.
 
Old 05-26-2005, 06:21 PM   #159
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A day or so ago, I sent the following email to James Modon:
Quote:
Last warning. If you do not refund the money I paid for these worthless projectiles, all efforts expended in legal proceedings will be asked as recoverable damages when I take this to small claims court. I also have an attorney who is a friend of mine located in Ohio that will assist me in collecting on the judgement when filed.

You have been made aware of the bogus nature of the merchandise you are selling and yet you still continue to send that junk out to unsuspecting buyers. That is CLEARLY fraud and will be bringing you to the attention of your state's attorneys office shortly.

Go ahead, ignore this email too. I am showing good faith efforts to get this resolved before having to resort to the court system. This is going to get rather expensive for you.
To which I received the following reply:
Quote:
I will print a copy of your email and get it to James when I see him next week. He has been out of town for about a week visiting a friend who is in the hospital.
By the way he only ran that auction one time. Not repeated as you seem to be under the impression of. He has had 4 requests for more of the bullets, but the guy who owned them doesn't have anymore. Isn't it against federal law to load steel core bullets into handgun rounds as you say you are going to do ? Thanks.
Interesting dodge, eh?

Anyway, I replied with the following:
Quote:
Yes, please pass this on to him. I do have an attorney in Ohio, by the way, that will assist me if needed.

As for the legality issue, I suspect Mr. Modon has already looked into this before offering them for sale to the public. In short AP ammo for handguns is only illegal if imported into the country, or sold as loaded ammo by a FFL dealer. The loading of projectiles by a private person for use in their own firearms is not illegal.

But that is rather irrelevant concerning this issue we face here with misrepresented merchandise, isn't it? And look on the bright side, if he simply refunds my money for this unacceptable merchandise, then he can simply sell them to someone else who may find it acceptable and not willing to undergo legal proceedings to get this resolved. Sounds like a no-brainer decision to me.

BTW, once I reach the point to where I have to pay for the help of my attorney to resolve this, those fees will be added to the total amount needed to satisfy my claim in court. And as I mentioned, I do have an attorney in Ohio, so jurisdiction will remain local within Ohio.

Thank you.
 
Old 06-05-2005, 02:48 PM   #160
 
Joined: May 2005

Posts: 55
Well I thought I might try a softer approach and said this.....

Hello.. I hate to do this but I feel I must. I need to ask for a refund or even an exchange for something else. These are not only no what they are claimed to be but they cannot be reloaded in any form due to the fact that the lead has been removed as look to be SS109 rounds. It would be insane to reload these and try to shoot them. I hope that you have been mislead here and not trying to scam these off. Please respond to this email so we can work someting out. Thank you
Larry

the response on 5-26-05 was...

Just let me know how much you paid, and what the shipping address is for the refund. The guy we sold them for, hasn't answered his phone in 2 weeks. And I have tried at all times of the day and night. Thanks, James

I am still waiting.. I will keep you in informed Rich


Fxds
 
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