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Old 04-14-2005, 01:11 AM   #121
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I've got a case of them on backorder for quite a while now. Since I originally placed the order for SS192, I wonder what they will send me when it comes in? I've heard that the SS195 has the same velocity as the SS192, but none of the sources are reliable. Seems kind of odd that FN would do something like that.

BTW, I learned something new today. The projectiles in the AP and tracer 5.7x28 ammo are steel clad with a copper wash, not a copper jacket. I have to confess that I haven't checked the SS192 ammo I have yet to see what that jacket is made of, as I only assumed it was copper. That just surprised me for some reason.
 
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Old 04-21-2005, 11:14 AM   #122
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I got to the range and fired the AA7 V-Max rounds. They all worked just fine, still had the large muzzle flash.
I was asked to do the complete workup to max loads with this powder so a determination can be done for the AA5 which is much faster burning powder.
I will keep you all posted
 
Old 04-26-2005, 05:07 PM   #123
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Question Suspicious projectiles....

OK, maybe I'm just suspicious and maybe I am paranoid, but I got in two different batches of what are supposed to be actual 5.7x28 AP projectiles.

Here's a couple of pics of the first batch:




Now here's some pics of the second batch:




Notice a couple of differences. In the second batch, MOST of the projectiles are mostly empty except for the steel insert at the tip. The rest of the jacket has NOTHING at all in it. The one on the right is obviously impacted with tumbling media and matter of fact, those loose bits fell out of the one on the left. Second, you can actually see traces of where there was probably a painted tip on those projectiles. Thirdly, the projectiles have a cannelure, which I have never seen on 5.7x28 projectiles.

My guess is that this second batch are actually 5.56 SS109 projectiles that somehow had the lead removed from them. I do admire the work that someone did to do something like this, but I really don't think it would be wise for me to load these up. Having that open cavity in the projectile certainly can't be a good thing. At the very least, I would guess these things would keyhole like crazy if they even made it out of the barrel without that jacket rupturing from filling up with high pressure propellant gas.

But what do you all think? Did I just get royally ripped with this second batch?
 
 
Old 04-27-2005, 12:53 AM   #124
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I think you are 100% correct on the SS109 projectiles. All one has to do is heat them up and melt the lead inside and it runs right out. It appears that there is some lead residue on the one on the left.
To my knowledge,... Aluminum alloy is used instead of lead in these bullets,... all of them except for the obvious V-Max's....
I would be giving whomever I bought them from a call about them..... and I wouldn't even consider loading them up.
 
Old 04-28-2005, 01:00 AM   #125
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Looks like I am going to have a fight on my hands trying to get my money back for these "things". Why do so many people in this business always point the blame at the "other guy"? This guy is saying it is the fault of the person HE got them from. I'll tell you honestly, I'm about ready to stop buying stuff on the net. Too many scams going on or people just trying to dump junk with a "grab the money and run" type of attitude.

Anyway, if I do get stuck with this crap, anyone have any suggestions on what I could use to fill in that hollow jacket base? Something lightweight yet won't flash evaporate from the heat of the propellant.

Those projectiles, as is, weigh roughly 30 grains. So if I could fill those bases with something weighing no more then 10 grains I might still be able to do something with them. Sure wish I had a cheaper gun to test them with in 5.7x28. I've heard that FN has stopped sales of the FiveseveN to the public, so I sure don't want to blow up one of my guns experimenting.

How the heck someone found the time to extract the lead from all of those projectiles just amazes me. And the possibility that I may have to find some way (and time) to pack those bases with something so I can use them just irritates the hell out of me.
 
Old 04-28-2005, 06:22 PM   #126
 
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in all honesty i think you would be better off fighting about it and getting a refund ow throwing them away.

you will not get any reasonable accuracy out of them due to the inconcistancy of the weight and balance.

further more how to tell that the heating of the jacket to get the lead out did not change the properties of the jacket...like annealing.

sean
 
Old 04-29-2005, 08:45 PM   #127
 
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Cut your Losses

[QUOTE=Rich Z]Looks like I am going to have a fight on my hands trying to get my money back for these "things". Why do so many people in this business always point the blame at the "other guy"? This guy is saying it is the fault of the person HE got them from. I'll tell you honestly, I'm about ready to stop buying stuff on the net. Too many scams going on or people just trying to dump junk with a "grab the money and run" type of attitude.

Anyway, if I do get stuck with this crap, anyone have any suggestions on what I could use to fill in that hollow jacket base? Something lightweight yet won't flash evaporate from the heat of the propellant.

Those projectiles, as is, weigh roughly 30 grains. So if I could fill those bases with something weighing no more then 10 grains I might still be able to do something with them. Sure wish I had a cheaper gun to test them with in 5.7x28. I've heard that FN has stopped sales of the FiveseveN to the public, so I sure don't want to blow up one of my guns experimenting.

How the heck someone found the time to extract the lead from all of those projectiles just amazes me. And the possibility that I may have to find some way (and time) to pack those bases with something so I can use them just irritates the hell out of me.
Cut your losses and pitch them
 
Old 04-29-2005, 11:59 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelouze
Cut your losses and pitch them
Have to agree with this.
 
Old 04-30-2005, 02:23 AM   #129
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Perhaps easy for you to say that, but I paid $1K for these things. I am not inclined to just let it go without putting a little reaming to that guy's butt.
 
Old 04-30-2005, 08:49 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Z
Perhaps easy for you to say that, but I paid $1K for these things. I am not inclined to just let it go without putting a little reaming to that guy's butt.
Cough,... Cough,... Yes it was easier for me to say that..... I had no idea how much you spent on them.

Where did you get them, ebay? If so there is action you can take. If you used a credit card, you can go through them to get your money back, because what you received was not what you ordered. Check the advertisement carefully. Better yet, if you have a link to the site,.....

BTW,.. I'd be inclined to do ALOT of reaming,..... with a very big reamer!!!!
 
Old 05-01-2005, 01:15 AM   #131
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The guy was advertising on GunBroker. He wanted $2 a pop on them. I emailed him and asked him if he would take $1 a pop if I took 1,000 of them.

I paid for them with a postal money order. Actually two money orders.

Here's the link to the auction: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=30475296

The guy has over 1,000 positive feedbacks, as far as I can tell, all from selling ammunition, and mostly specialty stuff like AP and incendiary. I believe that is pretty strong evidence that he DOES know ammunition and he knew perfectly well what these things are.

He is saying that the question marks in the title indicated he didn't know what they were. Yeah, that's all fine and dandy, but he neglected to indicate the hollow projectile or show such in the photo. If I had seen that, I would not have bought the things, because I would have known what was going on.

In the letter I enclosed along with the postal money orders, I stated this:
Quote:
As per our email correspondence, I am enclosing a postal money order for $1,009.00 which reflects payment for 1,000 5.7x28 SS190 (AP steel core) projectiles.
THAT is what I expected to be paying for, not bastardized .223 SS109 projectiles.

Heck, I bought 1,000 of them, and several other people bought some from that auction as well. How in the world someone would find the time and have the patience to remove the lead from that many .223 projectiles boggles my mind. I can't imagine HOW someone did so many of them without going insane from the tedium, so there must be a quick way to do it that I just haven't thought of. A long while back I was playing with trying to load .44 jackets with pure metallic sodium. I melted out the lead using a torch, but it was a real pain in the butt to do. Then I would put the sodium in the jackets and heat them to melt the chips into the copper jacket. Got pretty exciting when one of them ignited from the heat, though!

Anyway, if there is a way to salvage them and actually use them, I would just swallow my pride at getting snookered and keep them.

Is there such a thing as an aluminum liquid paste that I could use to fill those things in with? Maybe an epoxy of some sort?

Or hell, maybe I'll just try to sell them for whatever I can get. Tell it like it is, though, photos and all, and maybe someone else can figure out something to do with them. Truth of the matter is that I will probably put them in an ammo can and forget about them. Then my wife will have to get rid of them after I die and not have a clue what the heck they are.

If you guys ever hear about an estate sale after my death, I STRONGLY advise you to drop everything and attend.
 
Old 05-02-2005, 04:05 PM   #132
 
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I would not load any of those and shoot them out of any gun. Filling them with anything is just asking for trouble. Mabe you can get some of your money back selling them for scrap. I think I would cash in some sky miles and go pay that guy that sold them to you a personal visit!!
 
Old 05-02-2005, 08:18 PM   #133
 
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The only thing I know of that might work is tungsten powder. I've seen it used to make frangible bullets, but not sure if that is the way you want to go.

Here is some info

http://www.corbins.com/
 
Old 05-03-2005, 01:43 AM   #134
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here is a pic of the tails of some hollow point ammo. Note how they are swaged.

 
Old 05-03-2005, 04:48 PM   #135
 
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for the sake of a little lol
why not fill them with Fe03 (scale type rust) and aluminum .
powder both very finely and mix .
end result thermite.

not sure if it will ignite on impact though....but regular jacketed bullets often spark.

you got hosed and i am sorry it happened.
most likely gunbroker will give you the same line of **** that they gave me.
"the seller has great feedback and gives us lots of money you don't so screw off"
ok so that wasn't the exact quote but close.

i would still fight like heck and perhaps consider MAIL FRAUD charges as they are not what you paid for and the postal system was utilized.

perhaps a scary letter from an attourny would help lol
sean
 
Old 05-03-2005, 07:38 PM   #136
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Yeah, I haven't made any moves on this yet, but since I paid with Postal Money orders, mail fraud is defintitely in the cards. Just so happens I have an attorney friend (he's a gun nut like me too) up in Ohio where this guy lives at, so the application of some legal heat may be in the works as well.

It's odd that he has stopped putting ANY auctions on Gunbroker, too.

I've been in contact with one of the people who actually won one of those auctions for these projectiles, and as of yesterday he hadn't even received his at all. Not sure what is going on.

Anyway, the guy's name is James Modon at 76205 Duncanwood Road, Cadiz, Ohio 43907, if anyone ever has reason to do business with this guy. His handle on GunBroker is boggman. Just a FYI in case you need it.
 
Old 05-04-2005, 12:30 AM   #137
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I fired the full range loads with the AA7, sent the data to Johan, and this is the response I received:

Thanks for the feedback and co-operation.
You’re latest data shows that AA 7 is closer to the factory powder than AA5.
The 6.9grains load is about were you should settle for good all round performance.
You can experiment with AA5 if you want, but I would be reluctant.
Since this is such a sensitive caliber the faster powder will even be less forgiving.
You will have to extremely careful, because things will happen much faster.
I suggest between 5.0 and 6.2grains of AA 5.


The load information:

Hornady V-Max 35 grain
6.9 grains AA7
CCI 400 Primer (small rifle)
COL: 1.46 inches
Case trimmed to 1.127
1884 FPS
 
Old 05-07-2005, 11:15 AM   #138
 
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Does the shoulder move much with this load?
 
Old 05-08-2005, 11:41 AM   #139
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The shoulders move even with the factory loads. With this load it moves a little more than factory. The overall case length does grow so it will need to be trimmed. I have taken apart a couple of my factory loads and checked case length, and got a range so I just used the middle figure for trimming. Seems to work just fine.
In testing, I went all the way up to 7.3 grains. With that load, the shoulder moved considerably! They did resize just fine. Wouldn't recommend that load to anyone, except to not do it.
I will be working up the AA5, only to to the point of about 1850 fps.
I did replace a factory bullet with a 35 grain V-Max, it chrono'd at 1792fps
 
Old 05-09-2005, 09:27 PM   #140
 
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http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=30475296
HAHAHA well then.... small world. I picked up 2 bags myself. In fact i just sent off the MO for 165 bucks last thursday. We shall see
97 Fxds
 
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