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Old 01-11-2021, 09:11 PM   #1
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if i was worried enough about bears

to carry more gun than the pocket 9x21 Sig, I'd carry the AR. The 460 Rowland Lw Commander is not ENOUGH of a step upward in ability to mean much. You've got to brain big animals in order to reliably stop charges and I've done a LOT more fast shooting with the AR than any other sort of rifle, so I'd not bother to train more with some other type of longarm, even if I did bother to own such a thing (which I wouldn't do). Even in grizzly country, i value that handling/practice, the silencer, the night sight, the superb trigger job, the .22 unit a lot more than any supposed increased power of some other cartridge. That power means nothing for brain hits. A 223 sp to the brain drops any animal (short of an elephant) in its tracks, completely non-functional. More power than that is just wasted, so why bother with it, especially at the cost of lugging around a heavier longarm, with which i've practiced a LOT less?

12 ga slugs and 3006 have let adrenalized deer run 50m after a chest hit. If a bear is attacking you, he's most certainly adrenalized, and there's ZERO reason to believe that a predator is any easier to stop than a prey animal. predators have to risk sticking their face where they can get their jaw kicked off, or their eye knocked out, in every attack and often, many times per attack. So they aint easily shocked into stopping. There's many cases on record of very powerful rifles not stopping wart hogs, much less 500 lb bears. So the brain hit is the way to go. Top hands in africa use double rifles, in very powerful calibers, but when they have to stop a charge from a buff, hippo, etc, they aim for the brain.


if you have to do this stopping a bear thing with a pistol, you can bet it will have to be done with one hand, pressing the muzzle to his temple, while he's chewing on your other arm
 
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Old 01-12-2021, 07:44 AM   #2
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You aren’t worried about bears because you don’t backpack.

You don’t backpack, which is why you’re going to claim you carry your gun in a front pants pocket.

You also should google defensive pistol use against bears. It’s more effective than you realize.
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Old 01-12-2021, 08:28 AM   #3
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In the past he has mentioned summer time, fair weather, 1/2 day field exercises taken before dark, when mommy wanted him home.
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Old 01-12-2021, 10:06 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boati View Post
...carry more gun than the pocket 9x21..
Like, perhaps, carrying the same gun with a normal, stock, factory-installed 9x19 barrel, using normal, stock, readily-available ammunition...?

Remember (you probably don't, actually), I've explained to you that when loaded with max powder charges, using the same projectile, launched from the same gun, the 9x21 is LESS powerful than a 9x19 plus-p load.

No benefit to the 9x21 if you're in a country where you can have the 9x19.
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Old 01-12-2021, 10:39 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John in AR View Post
Like, perhaps, carrying the same gun with a normal, stock, factory-installed 9x19 barrel, using normal, stock, readily-available ammunition...?

Remember (you probably don't, actually), I've explained to you that when loaded with max powder charges, using the same projectile, launched from the same gun, the 9x21 is LESS powerful than a 9x19 plus-p load.

No benefit to the 9x21 if you're in a country where you can have the 9x19.
he likes specialized, cobbled guns and ammo, and dismisses anything that runs contrary to his misguided ideas. He'll contradict himself in the same thread (or on the same subject scattered across threads and forums)
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Old 01-14-2021, 04:42 AM   #6
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For discussion purposes, didn't the Russians consider a warmed up loading of the 9x21 as a possible service pistol before they went with a VERY hot 9x19mm?
And I also wonder 1) how much could a handloader stoke up the available 9x21 here to improve performance without some dangerous over pressure issues?
2mm more case volume with an almost identical OAL doesn't SEEM like much of a margin; but I am curious myself
 
Old 01-14-2021, 06:36 AM   #7
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Don't know about the russians looking into 9x21, they may have. I wondered about loads beyond book pressures, but didn't look at them in Quickload the other day, since I figured if we were willing to load one of them above max pressure, we would probably be willing to do the same with the other and would still keep similar margins. Just an assumption, but seemed reasonable.

Out of curiosity I decided to check on my assumption. (You know what they say about those...)

Loading both the 9x21 and 9mm+p to 10% above book maximums, with the light Hornady 90-grain XTP bullet and bullseye powder gives this:

9x21 - 7.2 grains, 1627 fps, 529 ft/lbs
9mm+p - 7.6 grains,1688 fps, 569 ft/lbs (7.6% more powerful)


Overloading both by 20% yields the following:
9x21 - 7.5 grains, 1677 fps, 562 ft/lbs
9mm+p - 8.0 grains, 1753 fps, 614 ft/lbs (9.2% more powerful)


Curiosity got me and I wondered 'what if we totally lost our minds and loaded them both 30% above maximum'...?
9x21 - 7.7 grains, 1710 fps, 584 ft/lbs
9mm+p - 8.2 grains, 1784 fps, 636 ft/lbs (8.9% more powerful)


Without getting too deep into minutia, I wondered "what about an uber-light 50-grain bullet", so these are the results with that bullet, at a 10% overload:
9x21 - 8.5 grains, 2168 fps, 522 ft/lbs
9mm+p - 9.0 grains, 2267 fps, 571 ft/lbs (9.4% more powerful)

Hmm... Okay, what about the other end of the spectrum? What if we used a 147-grain bullet? Maybe the 9x21 has an advantage there.
9x21 - 4.3 grains, 1103 fps, 397 ft/lbs
9mm+p - 4.5 grains, 1133 fps, 419 ft/lbs (5.5% more powerful)


So even hot-rodding, even regardless of bullet weight, the 9mm+p still comes out on top in every combination I've checked. So in every instance the normal 9mm+p still outperformed the 9x21 caliber. And also lets our gun shoot normal ammo available everywhere, avoids the problem of mixing ammo (having one caliber barrel on the gun, and a different ammo in our spare magazines, etc), and saves the cost of the conversion barrel in the first place. Makes me think that if the Russians did look into the 9x21 but ended up staying with 9x19, they saw the same results. That, combined with the pretty much worldwide availability of the 9x19 caliber, would make sense for their decision to stick with it.

Fwiw, Quickload imo is well worth the cost if a person has any interest in working up loads that are (for whatever reason) outside book norms. Extra light bullets, extra heavy bullets, non-typical powder choices, etc. If you can't find the powder you're used to for a given caliber, it will let you calculate safe loads based on whatever powders you can find, etc. If you can't find the normal .355 bullet but can find .356's, it will let you work with that, etc.

Iirc it was $150 or $159, but that could be more than recouped if it saves just one damaged gun part or even just saves the hassle of a few dozen trial & error workups.

Obvious disclaimer - don't load your ammo based on what my quickload told me. I'm not posting load recommendations, I'm simply posting the performance difference between two calibers. And if we went to other cartridges (like 9x23 maybe) the results might be very different. But a 9x23 won't fit in a normal 9mm gun the way the 9x21 was designed to, so it's irrelevant to this pocket-pistol conversation anyway.
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Old 01-14-2021, 08:16 AM   #8
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Very informative post, lots of good factual data.
 
Old 01-14-2021, 09:46 AM   #9
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I missed the part in the attached article that referenced the recorded effectiveness of the 9x21, the 5.56mm and the 460 Rowland.

http://www.ammoland.com/2020/03/upda...#axzz6jXasJE1q
 
Old 01-14-2021, 11:35 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garand View Post
I missed the part in the attached article that referenced the recorded effectiveness of the 9x21, the 5.56mm and the 460 Rowland.

http://www.ammoland.com/2020/03/upda...#axzz6jXasJE1q
he will be along shortly to deny it, or claim that it validates his choice of weird calibers...
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Old 01-14-2021, 11:41 AM   #11
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If a 9x21 is adequate, then a 9x19 is adequate-plus.
 
Old 01-14-2021, 01:02 PM   #12
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Melvin, if the balloon ever went up, where do you think you are going to get enough 9x21 and 460 Rowland brass to get you through the zombie apocalypse? Its going to be as "come as you are" event!.
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Old 01-14-2021, 01:32 PM   #13
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Mel will never make it through a zombie apocalypse, he will be too busy making his dremeled, hacksawn split bullets an trying to find that one piece of 9x21 brass he thought he had.
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Old 01-14-2021, 01:49 PM   #14
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he is going to be shot by someone 15 meters away as his 10" at 10 meter bullets sail harmlessly past either side of the person who shoots him...
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Old 01-14-2021, 05:39 PM   #15
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I think the only "bears" he ever had to worry about were in the prison showers.
 
Old 01-15-2021, 09:48 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boati View Post
if i was worried enough about bears to carry more gun than the pocket 9x21 Sig, I'd carry the AR. The 460 Rowland Lw Commander is not ENOUGH of a step upward in ability to mean much...
I didn't even notice the .460 Rowland reference initially, but got sidetracked by the stupid 9x21 fixation.

I don't use the Rowland and have no interest in doing so unless I somehow got caught in a pinch and it was the only 45-caliber round I could find (it can be fired from my redhawk if need be). But the simple fact is, the 460 Rowland is roughly twice as powerful as the 9x21, with roughly twice the bullet mass as well.

For someone who claims that energy is the biggest factor to claim that a doubling of that muzzle energy is irrelevant, would be a little mind-boggling if it could actually be taken seriously.
 
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