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Old 08-15-2018, 05:00 PM   #1
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Greg Ellifritz

I re-read some info on handgun performance that Greg Ellifritz put out and got to wondering if anyone here had any thoughts on it. Personally, I think it's good info.

http://www.activeresponsetraining.ne...stopping-power
 
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Old 08-15-2018, 06:05 PM   #2
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I think thats pretty good info.

impact shock value is very important when it comes to stopping power. but if yer afraid of the boom/kick and anticipate the boom causing a flinch then you have a much less chance of hittin, what yer shootin at in the "drop zone", especially in a high stress situation. so those shooting a smaller weapon that have less fear of the boom, makin it easier for them to hit what they are shootin at more accurately.

hard to miss with a long gun and it is harder to do that forward flinch trying to push the projectile out the end of the gun like many do with a handgun.
 
Old 08-16-2018, 03:12 AM   #3
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head shots and spine hits should be ignored. of COURSE they suffice. The definition of a stop should be that his arms dropped or he turned away and never turned back. Limb hits and grazes of the torso should be ignored. If you hit him with a bullet, better hit him with several. He'll cause you a lot less trouble if he's dead, rather than crippled. But you have to get those additional hits really fast, like within the next half second, before he can collapse or turn away. IF you can get to your M4, loaded with 60 gr softpoints, of course that's superior to any handgun. Of course you dont want a 158 gr jhp in a 357 snubby, or .41 or .44 mag in a full sized gun, cause your repeat hits will be too slow. Best have electronic ear protection beside the gun in your home, Armor would be great, too, of course. Best have ear plugs in a case in your pocket, lanyarded to your belt, so you can get the plugs into your ears if you get any warning, or make it to cover in the midst of the fight. Doing so will double your effective range.

Last edited by boati; 08-16-2018 at 03:15 AM.
 
 
Old 08-16-2018, 05:43 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boati View Post
...He'll cause you a lot less trouble if he's dead, rather than crippled.
Most of us aren't enthralled with killing, just with surviving the encounter unscathed so we can go home to our families. The goal of self-defense shooting isn't necessarily to kill. The goal is just as it says - defense.


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...Best have ear plugs in a case in your pocket, lanyarded to your belt, so you can get the plugs into your ears if you get any warning...
All day, every day, having earplugs hanging from a lanyard on your belt, so you can put them in if you get into a gunfight that day? And if lanyarding the pocketed box of earplugs to the belt for security purposes is so important, doesn't logic dictate that we should lanyard our pocket gun as well?
 
Old 08-16-2018, 07:37 AM   #5
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Fwiw, this video summarizes the data he collected; more than 1,700 shootings over a span of 10 years.

 
Old 08-16-2018, 09:22 AM   #6
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Interesting stats, but life doesn't fall neatly in a box. There is no single firearm that is good for all situations. That is why many of us (Melvin excluded) own multiple firearms. As an individual, the best you can do is maintain proficiency and continually work on your accuracy.
 
Old 08-16-2018, 10:58 AM   #7
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Interesting stats, but life doesn't fall neatly in a box. There is no single firearm that is good for all situations. That is why many of us (Melvin excluded) own multiple firearms. As an individual, the best you can do is maintain proficiency and continually work on your accuracy.
Agreed. I was primarily surprised to see documentation of how little difference there really is between the various duty calibers. I've believed for a number of years now that caliber choice (within reason) has become less & less important, and also believe that it's now actually less important than ammunition choice within whatever caliber you do choose. Basically, that the gap has closed significantly between calibers over the past 20-30 years. Have believed that for a while, and it's a big part of why I switched from .45acp to 9mm in the late 90's, but never had any real compiled stats to quantify that belief.

The most surprising thing to me personally was how small the performance gap was between the .380 and the common 'duty' calibers. I really expected that gap to be wider, but it is what it is.
 
Old 08-16-2018, 04:23 PM   #8
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Just to stay proficient Melvin, I'm going to change it up tonite, heading out to the range to shoot steel challenge in about 20 min.
 
Old 08-16-2018, 07:25 PM   #9
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Wait a minute, did he (Melvin) actually advise reaching for ear plugs first in a deadly confrontation? Hearing is very important, mine was damaged long ago, but I think I would concentrate on getting my weapon into play first. A lanyard on a box of ear plugs. The weirdness continues.
 
Old 08-17-2018, 08:01 AM   #10
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Wait a minute, did he (Melvin) actually advise reaching for ear plugs first in a deadly confrontation?...
To be fair, he didn't say to reach for them 'first'. He said to put them in if you get some warning or once you get behind cover:

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Originally Posted by boati View Post
...Best have ear plugs in a case in your pocket, lanyarded to your belt, so you can get the plugs into your ears if you get any warning, or make it to cover in the midst of the fight. Doing so will double your effective range.
Personally, if I'm in a fight-for-my-life situation, I think disabling my ability to hear things is a bad idea; but I'm not nearly the uber-thinking keyboard desperado as some. I know that emotionally high-strung dogs are extremely sensitive to loud noises; perhaps it's also true of emotionally high-strung people.

The hypothesis that having earplugs in place will make me able to effectively shoot twice as far is also intriguing. I never shoot without hearing protection anymore, but I used to do so in the 70's and 80's, and can state categorically from decades of personal experience that hearing protection does not let you shoot twice as far.

I'd honestly still like an answer to the lanyard question as well. If it's important that the earplugs be lanyarded to the belt to make sure we have them when we need them, why is it not equally important to lanyard the pocket gun itself..? Surely it's as important to keep track of as earplugs are.
 
Old 08-17-2018, 12:09 PM   #11
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My mistake, I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong. Even reaching cover I would concentrate on the fight, not on earplugs. Cover is not concealment, your opponent maybe looking for just such an opportunity to charge your position. I've never, ever, heard of anyone in combat, either in the Military or in Law Enforcement take a moment to put in ear plugs. Other things are usually occupying your thoughts. Also, why would ear plugs double your effective range? I've experienced, as have many others, auditory exclusion in combat. You just tend to sound out a lot of noise. It's not conscious, it just happens. Ask a Soldier or a Cop how many rounds he fired in a fight. Not many can even com close to remembering.
 
Old 08-18-2018, 10:36 AM   #12
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John in AR-. Great thread and thanks for the link. Yep, it shows a few of the reasons I transitioned to 9mm from .45ACP.
 
Old 08-29-2018, 05:06 AM   #13
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Quote:
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...if lanyarding the pocketed box of earplugs to the belt for security purposes is so important, doesn't logic dictate that we should lanyard our pocket gun as well?
And still no answer from gungidget...
 
Old 08-29-2018, 02:06 PM   #14
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did you actually expect an answer??? lolol
 
Old 08-29-2018, 03:00 PM   #15
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did you actually expect an answer??? lolol
No, just getting an admittedly perverse enjoyment out of reminding him of his intellectual cowardice.
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Old 08-29-2018, 03:36 PM   #16
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haha I kinda knew that wonder if he feels secure here or wonders how long before he goes poof....

My perverse enjoyment ha
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Old 08-31-2018, 05:23 PM   #17
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It wasn't all that long ago that I dropped several of my biases against certain "inferior"classes of guns (9mm, polymer frames, striker-fired guns, rifles smaller than 30 cal... I think that's about all of it) and jumped on board.
I still carry a .40 PPS (Why? Because 180gr HSTs won't fit in the 9, Silly), but don't feel under-gunned w a quality 9.

I'm still searching for the right subcompact. 45...
 
Old 08-31-2018, 06:54 PM   #18
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Pair of Colt Lightweight Defenders in 45
 
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