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Pocket Carry Options

13K views 26 replies 10 participants last post by  nikto 
#1 ·
In a few months I'm eligible to apply for my CWP.

I'm looking into something that can be comfortably carried and fully concealed in a standard pants pocket as my EDC. The more it feels like I'm just carrying an extra wallet or phone, the better. Semi-Automatic, Magazine Fed, DA/SA, safe to carry ready to go, and No Safeties preferred. Would consider a compact revolver as well but that's bottom of the list. Potential as a suppressor host is desirable but not essential. It can't be a maintenance whore either.

I'd carry a larger, more suitable tool for occasions where I'm probably somewhere I shouldn't be in the first place or otherwise expect substantially escalated risk.

I'm inexplicably partial to Beretta and have been looking into the 3032 and the 21. With the .32 ACP I keep reading about frame cracking problems, and apparently Beretta's manual warns against anything loaded with more zest than "130 ft/lbs of energy," which is about what one can expect from a high velocity .22LR. I don't have any qualms about carrying a .32 as long as it was proven reliable and the bullet functioned as designed (which seems to leave me with the 60gr Corbon or higher velocity 71gr FMJs, both of which are over the very meager power threshold put forth by Beretta). I'm not sure how I'd feel about carrying the .22, though I kind of rationalize that a pocket gun is more of an impending violent confrontation / don't fsck with me solution than anything else. An as-new-as-I-can-find .380 or .32 70 series sounds more reliable than the 3032 or 21 but I can't find any pocket carry solutions for them and they're also not DA/SA.

I really wish someone made a pocket 9x19 that met my desires. I do not like DAO.

Does anyone have any Pocket Carry suggestions, advice, or preferred holster solutions?
 
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#2 ·
...I really wish someone made a pocket 9x19 that met my desires. I do not like DAO...
Rohrbach? Don't recall if they're DAO or DA/SA; think DAO, but not sure.

On the Beretta 21, I'd work hard to talk you out of it. I've had one for over 20 years and while it's fine functionally with any plated hi-vel 22LR round (it's especially fond of Stingers), it's just a flat wimp power-wise due to its ultra-short barrel. Was out shooting with a brother-in-law at a dump in the mid-90's, me with the 21A and my 4.5" ruger, and him with his 6" ruger. Shooting at an old washing machine with federal HP solids, the rounds from the beretta literally bounced off the outer sheet-metal skin at 10 yards or so. From both longer-barrel pistols, every round penetrated the outer shell and either dented or even penetrated the inner tub wall as well. Same ammo, but not one round from the little pocket .22 made it thru the thin outer sheet metal. That day turned me off the 21A for protective use completely. Still a great gun, well made & reliable; but just too weak by virtue of its barrel length.

I currently carry an LCP in .380 when not carrying something larger, and it's been a very satisfactory gun. Never a malfunctino so far, and gobbles up the remington 102-grain jhp like it was ball. No complaints with it whatsoever and recommend it without hesitation if a .380 suits you.

Before the lcp, I carried a P32 for a couple years, and it was fine as long as I stuck with fmj stuff. I preferred the corbon ammo, and the gun ran fine with it for the most part, but the combination of short oal and rimmed case of the .32acp made it rimlock once on me; chambered round fired fine, but after that it was locked up completely until I disassembled the magazine to unclog it. Discovered it at the range, and don't know how long it'd been locked up that way with me carrying it - could have been a day or as long as a couple weeks, since I'd last fired the gun. That was it for me & short-oal rounds in rimmed autopistol cartridges; leaving only fmj's as an option and fmj's in .32acp aren't in my comfort zone. That killed the P32 for me and is why I went with the LCP. The P32 also did break its mainspring, but that could have been a fluke and Keltec did replace it fast & free.

For a while before the P32 I pocket-carried a P64, a Polish surplus gun in 9x18 the size of a walther ppk; very small for its power level. Only 'problems' with it were its all-steel weight, blued finish, and fairly wrenching recoil when shooting 9x18 from a ppk-size blowback pocket gun. Main complaint was weight; if you could live with that, they make a great option imo, especially if you can find some of the old silver bear 115-grain ammo around. It was by far the hottest 9x18 I've used - substantially hotter than the same-brand 94-grain that you see now.
 
#3 ·
John,

Thanks for the lengthy reply.

That's horrible about the 21. I figured it'd be more or less a contact distance weapon but what you describe is pretty bad.

The Rohrbaughs are DAO, as is the LCP. Since you have an LCP though, how well does it conceal in a pocket? What's the trigger pull weight?

What you've described re: the .32 has worried me as well.

What holster would you recommend for the P64 and what would you compare the loaded weight to? Some brief digging found me one in excellent condition very cheap... So cheap I may acquire one regardless. Weight and comfort coupled with concealability are my critical criteria; it's just supposed to be a handy piece of insurance that won't be a PitA to live with and take everywhere.
 
#5 ·
The Beretta Tomcat is often regarded as disposable and I would not fool with one. For actually carrying in a front trouser pocket, the 21-A is a little chunky and I prefer the size of the 950 BS. As previously noted in regard to the short barrel, the .22 LR loses power and I do not feel that much is given up by going with the .22 Short in the 950 BS.

Both offer surprisingly serviceable accuracy that I like (the attached image shows a target shot at 21 feet, offhand, with a 950 BS). The downside to the 950 BS is that the safety is a mickey mouse addition in response to the GOA of '68 and it is more practical to forget about it and carry it at half cock. Either in .25 ACP would address less reliable rimfire ignition. The downside of both, in my opinion, is clearing a jam or a stubborn misfire in a defensive situation since they lack extractors.

Even though the sights are more rudimentary than on the Berettas, I have found the Baby Browning to be reliable and it carries better in a front trouser pocket than any other small auto that I have tried. I have no first hand experience with the Ruger LCP but I hear it is good; I have shot Kel-Tecs but the crappy triggers and mixed reviews have kept me from buying one. For me, anything much larger is better carried in an IWB holster; hip, cargo, or jacket pocket; or belly band.
 

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#6 ·
The TCP (Taurus), LCP (Ruger), P3AT (Kel-Tec), and other plastic wonder .380s all work fine (I've owned or shot all three of these above and a P32.)

I consider them last ditch guns. Great hideout but still not to be THE pistol. I perfer the .380s and .32s with FMJ due to penitraion from odd angles.

I've actually used the Beretta .25 SAs (with no safety) and even NAA Pug .22 magnum. Again I consider them hideout lastditch guns.

Get a good J frame .38, be it a 642, 638, M60, or just about any good Smith 'J' .38 (the magnum Js are, well, pretty hot potatoes to shoot fast one handed and thus I don't care for them.) Another is a full sized .380 like a Bersa or Colt 'government model' .380. Unlike the TCP/LCP/P3AT guns, they have enough handle to make accurate defensive guns at longer ranges. Still kind of weak in power but they could do if need be.
 
#7 ·
Thanks for the replies, everyone.

It seems that the consensus is that there isn't much in the way of exactly what I want from one of these things. I''ll start looking for a range that has a loaner TCP, LCP, or Kel-Tec. Manufacturers of these things need to get on the Sig fire control mentality... (though I do understand why unexposed-hammer DAO is theoretically a beneficial feature in this case)

I'm heavily considering the P64 though it's on the big and heavy side for the application.

Arebindixie,

How do you feel about the .25 ACP vs. .22 (Short and LR) in general? Is there by any chance a good resource that you know of similar to GoldenLoki that covers the .25?

DJetAce,

Is there anything exactly like the 642 except with a fully exposed hammer? I do not think that I will jive well with the 638s approach.

I too consider them to be less than ideal. The purpose is just something thats "there" and not much else, with no alterations in behavior needed to carry it around, no inconvenience when interacting with numerous people who don't know I'm armed, and ultimately just good to grab'n go and forget till I need it (to the extent responsibly possible).

It's partially that extra bit of handle and added weight I'm worried about. Anything over a pound is probably a no go.

It's not that I have a problem with a full sized handgun. I just don't really need, and even-less-so want, one for the job.
 
#8 ·
Yes.

The true Chiefs Airweight.

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/review/M637.htm

And I highly recommend Secret Service grips.

http://www.eaglegrips.com/guns/SW-J-Frame-Secret-Service-Grips.html

I also understand you can get the new J frames 'pre-lock' without the lock on the side of the frame. I'd get it that way to.

I have maybe seven J frame .38s. M60, 642, 640, 38 (airweight bodyguard) and the .357 magnum 640 (ouch! I can't take that gun in airweight format.) I do like them alot and I practice alot to with them. I have a reloader setup just for .38s.
 
#9 · (Edited)
DW - I missed your question on the P-64 earlier. I carried mine in a nylon/suede pocket holster; might have been either Michael's or DeSantis, don't recall which now. It's basically like a steel PPK, both in size and weight; any PPK holster would almost certainly fit fine.

PPK on top, P-64 on bottom:


It's not as finely polished as the PPK, but it's also sub-$200 usually. It recoils more than the PPK, because it's more powerful; which is a good thing in a pocket gun. Wolff makes springs for it, or at least used to, which should help reduce recoil - I've left mine original, but wolff is usually good stuff.

(Some ammo test examples: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?299-9x18-Ammunition-Data-Post )

A reliable, sub-$200 pocket gun firing a 115-grain JHP at 1,000 fps. That's right up there in 9x19 country, from a gun the size & weight of a PPK (remember, the PPK is smaller than the PPK/s; small gun).

Don't think the Silver Bear 115 is available anymore, but there's still some very good stuff out there. Corbon's 95-grainer runs ~1,135 fps from it; that's good stuff for a pocket gun.

If you can live with the weight of the gun itself (again, same weight as a walther PPK), and can live with sharper recoil than a .380, the P-64 is worth serious consideration imo.
 
#10 ·
Posting that P-64 & PPK picture made me think of this one, as you've been talking about a J-frame. This is a Glock 26 under an S&W 337:



This one is a standard model 60 with pachmayr Compacs, compared again to a G26, but with a +2 extension on the glock, making it a 12 or 13 shot pistol, compared to five in the revolver:


To be fair, while the J-frame is both longer and taller OAL than the small glocks, it is still (imo) a better shape for pocket carry, since it's less squared-off than the glock. There's also the issue of the glock's trigger not being a true DA - do you carry it cocked, or chamber-empty..? That said, I just thought I'd pass along these pics, as it's surprising to most people when they first see them superimposed like this.

(Fwiw, the few times I pocket-carried a G26, I did so with a round chambered and aluminum Saf-T-Block in place. Before doing so, I carried it with the saf-t-block and an empty chamber enough to get confident that it worked as it should. Not saying that's "the" answer; it was just my answer. Pocket-carrying a baby glock isn't for most folks anyway - I'm somewhat of an oaf and can get away with things that some folks can't.)
 
#11 ·
John,

Excellent info.

Is there any way you can get a pic comparison of the P64 and the J Frame, or otherwise relate the size?

Also, do you perchance have a favored source on the P64? My ideal buy got snatched up, and the stuff on gunbroker looks kind of sketchy :(
 
#13 ·
...can get a pic comparison of the P64 and the J Frame, or otherwise relate the size?

Also, do you perchance have a favored source on the P64? My ideal buy got snatched up, and the stuff on gunbroker looks kind of sketchy :(
This is a J-frame & PPK comparison; don't have one with the J-frame & p64, but PPK is close:


Bear in mind that this J-frame is also the smallest possible version, with wooden boot grips and 2" barrel.

On sources, I really don't. You might checkout www.P64resource.com or even www.makarov.com ; they used to have links & such. I know our local gun shop has three or four on the shelf and iirc, they're something like $229.

There's another 9x18 pistol that may (or may not) lend itself to pocket carry - the PA-63. I think it's an FEG gun. Never owned one, but I remember them being aluminum frame instead of steel; which would increase recoil, but would also make them lighter to carry.

They're not as compact as the P64 though; at least I don't think they were.
 
#12 ·
I went through the same quest a few months back as I was waiting for my CCL. I bought 4 guns to try out and see which I liked best. Ruger LCP 380, Kahr PM40 40cal, SW 360pd 357mag, and Glock 27 40cal. after a few months of experimenting and range time, I find myself carrying the SW and Kahr the most. It really depends on the situation with me. If I am going to be active, Bike riding, jogging(yeah right), or need something totally concealable, I choose the ruger. All other occasions I choose the Kahr or the SW 357. I just feel better having a larger caliber for the most part. But a 380 is still better than searching for a stick ;)

 
#14 ·
DW, this website provides some gel test insight: http://www.brassfetcher.com/index.html. The .25 ACP with a FMJ offers greater penetration than does the .22 LR (I would deduce the same regarding the .22 Short). The modern design of the .25 ACP cartridge (rimless, centerfire, jacketed bullet) and its penetration leads me to believe it to be a better, more reliable, defensive cartridge than the .22 Short or LR.

The advantage of the 950 BS in .22 Short or the 21 A in .22 LR is utility rather than defense. Both tuck out of the way conveniently as does a box of cartridges and the usable sights make them suitable for snakes and other vermin at reasonable ranges. Being that ammo is cheap, they also provide fun, impromptu plinking in my neck of the woods.

As a side note, I have carried numerous J frame class revolvers over the years (S&Ws and old Charter Arms) and I have found them to be more convenient and flexible (for my purposes and with the exception of routine carry in a front trouser pocket; of course, I also eschew baggy trousers and "tactical casual" attire) than anything else that I have tried. A friend of mine carries a Glock 27. It is compact, it shoots extremely well, it is very reliable, it offers plenty of firepower, and the stopping power of the .40 S&W is impressive. To me, it carries like a brick and between the two, I prefer the J frame but that boils down to the very unscientific "personal preference".
 
#16 ·
John, Arebindixie, and AustDeathMachine,

Thanks for the replies. This thread has been extremely informative.

My old neighbor may give me a 21A as a gift when he gets back from abroad. The price is right for me to at least try that out and see if more-or-less full time pocket carry is indeed what I really want. If it is, I'll be deciding between the P64, the LCx, and the 637.

I'm registered for the class next month so I can make a licensing appointment and get the process going on or near my birthday .

Arebindixie,

I feel that Glocks carry concealed like bricks as well. In my limited experience with them, it was near impossible not to have it print. A full size 1911 was much easier for me.

Clothing wise I wear dress khakis, a band t-shirt, and a black button down every day (I have three outfits of the same thing... real life version of Kenny from Southpark). I've been thinking of switching to TAD's cargo pants for a few reasons though, concealment bonuses included.
 
#17 ·
My $.02

DW,
I go round and round with looking at pocket guns every few years. I have brief love affair with 380 and consider the Bersas and Walther PPKs. Then I really look over the ballistics and wound data and change my mind. Next I look at 9mm and baby 1911s. I’d like to find the perfect mini 45 to go with the P220.
I’ve carried J frame (357) before and will recommend it. I’ve had my eye on S&W’s M&P360. I personally don’t like the air weights. I like the weight to be there to absorb some of the recoil.
Look forward to your decision to see what you go with. That will probably start my next cycle of looking at pocket guns.
 
#18 ·
OK, Wolfie, I'll share what I know for you to mull over:

In the order in which I'm reading these remarks: You've got very good instincts to be, 'inexplicably partial' to the Beretta Tom Cat. I've carried one, now, for more than 10 years. A the time I purchased it, lots of people were having problems with the very first models off the line.

I waited and got one of the, 'improved' Tom Cats with the larger safety and a slightly different barrel. So, far I've run it through 700 + rounds without a problem of any kind. (Well, that's not quite true. Stay away from crappy Winchester Silvertips; and you'll be OK.) Be aware that Beretta doesn't recommend carrying this little pistol in C-1 - Not a problem for me because I'm usually in C-3 anyway.

The Tom Cat does one thing much better than any other comparably sized pistol: Because of the wide backstrap it makes a perfect secondary! You can transition down from a full-sized pistol without losing your ability to shoot straight. That wide backstrap gives you the sensation that you're actually holding a much larger pistol.

If you go this route, be sure to throw the original factory grips away; and get yourself a pair of rubber Pearce, 'wrap around' grips. The right grips make all the difference! Be aware that the service life on a Model 3032 is essentially 2,500 to 3,000 rounds. After that you're going to need a new pocket pistol. (This is NOT an unusual situation for any of the small pistols.)

A word about Rohrbaugh: THEY SUCK! I'll be glad to post a picture of the Rohrbaugh factory representative holding a pistol he was unable to get to fire 4 consecutive rounds all afternoon! Any pistol that costs more than $1,000 and needs it's recoil spring changed out every 8 to 12 hundred rounds is NOT a carry pistol for me.

I carry my little Beretta in a Galco pocket holster. I'll be perfectly blunt: It doesn't hide all that well in dress slacks. Dungarees? Yes, but not lightweight trousers. My main use for it is as an outside pocket gun during the winter. It's not really a backup for me. It's more of a, 'go to' gun. Personally, I use Magtech and certainly wouldn't, 'shoot the dickens' out of a 3032 frame with Cor-Bon or Buffalo Bore. I often have two extra magazine carried in a separate pouch; this give me 21 rounds that are, 'good to go'. The 3032 is, indeed, surprisingly accurate. I've often used mine out to 12 yards, and have no complaints.

One of my acquaintances who owns and always carries a Kel-Tec P-32 really likes it and says it has never hung up on him. Only problem is that I've never seen him hit anything with it; so I don't know what to say. Maybe a PF-9 would be a better choice. I've two acquaintances who carry Ruger LCP's. Both of them tell me the LCP kicks like a mule; but it's, also, a highly concealable little gun. From what I've seen a laser sight is a must on an LCP.

Personally, I don't consider any of the subcompact Glocks or small revolvers suitable for front pocket carry; but, to each his own. I'll tell ya what you might want to keep your eye on: The new Kimber, 'Solo' and Kahr's PM-9.

Finally, you might want to also look into something like a Kramer or MagGill's Concealment T-Shirt. Good luck!
 
#20 ·
:eek2: OK! (Glad I was able to help.)
 
#21 ·
I haven't taken the time to read the other post, but I carry a Ruger LCR 357 in a Desantis pocket holster. I am a trucker and carry in right front pocket of pants, usually jeans. So comfortable I forget it's there. Also it has Crimsom Trace laser grips which I highly recommend.


Sent from my iPhone using Outdoor Forums
 
#22 · (Edited)
get bigger pockets. the Sig P238 380, colt mustang, Star Pony, all SA pocket 380's. All have locked breeches, can be loaded to give you 300 ft lbs of power. The Sig P938 is the answer, if rechambered to 356 TSW, if offers 500 ft lbs, like a 4" 357, by means of driving a 45 gr solid copper Split Nose bullet to 2200 fps, using 7.5 grs of Bullseye. Seems like a horrific overchrage, but 5 grs won't cycle the slide. The .100" longer, much stronger case of the 356 makes such a load safe to use Recoil is like that of the Makarov. The huge hollowbase cavity makes room for a lot more powder.

Don't know of a DA SA, off hand, sig P239, perhaps. DAO is the wave right now, and the Kahr CM 9 is where it's at, if you can tolerate the trigger pull. the factory does offer an upgrade. Youtube poster and galloway precision offer a fix for the DA pull of the Ruger LC9 and Twisted industries offers a .22lr conversion unit for said Ruger, along with a barreled that's threaded for silenced use.
 
#23 · (Edited)
Talk about a blast from the past.

Ended up with a 21A in .22, 70 in .32, and the P64. Sold the P64 to a friend who really loved it and gave the 70 to a girl who used it successfully in a self defense situation. 21A is my "shove in pants on late run to store" gun. Really fun with an SWR Warlock II and some of my early Form 2's as well!

I don't do hammer actuated DAO, ever. I don't care what's popular, it's a short-bus operating system.

I usually carry a random fullsize now for the majority of the time (as mentioned earlier, been focused on G17 even though I prefer my P226). At work I fortunately have a Mk18. Sorta hard to escalate from there.

Edit to add: Eventually I want to try the new Glock and M&P shield, but I personally don't enjoy a striker fired piece ready to go in a pocket in such a configuration even with an ostensibly custom holster. Call me a fudd...
 
#24 ·
P938 is carried cocked and locked. It's got a thumb safety and a firing pin safety. that's plenty. a 2.5" barreled .22lr has just 65 ft lbs, barely lethal, highly likely to fail you if you actually have to fire, and such a toy-like appearance that somebody MIGHT try you, thinking that it IS a toy. there's no reason to settle for such a feeble gun. at the very least, get a keltec .32 and hot load it. it's 5"x3.5", smaller than the M21, actually and you can handload it to 200 ft lbs and real expansion of the 60 gr Silvertip jhp, due to the locked breech. it weighs just 7 ozs. Gotta chuck up each rd in a drill, locked in a vice and hold a file on the semi rim, removing it, or risk rimlock misfeeds.
 
#25 ·
I don't do SAO for pocket guns either.

There was a very unfortunate time where "give me your ****in' wallet" turned into "here you go."

I didn't give him a wallet.
 
#26 ·
any body who "thinks" a j frame 357 is viable doesn't know the score. it's got, at best, 1200 fps and 400 ft lbs and is marginal about expanding a jhp. Recoil is so bad that you can't get hits on the chest at 10 ft, faster than .35 second per hit. you can get the same ballistics in a G19, and get repeat hits twice as fast. A j frame 357 is not a pocket gun, unless you mean a coveralls pocket. :) they are bad jokes, those things. Also, if you practice with real deal load much at all, you'll need a new gun once a year. They split their forcing cones, flame-cut the frame above said cone, develope end shake quickly in their cylinders, etc.
 
#27 · (Edited)
there's no such thing as "SAO", ya know. Just SA, that's it. There's no reason to fear the SA of the little Sig. it's got a firing pin safety, too. Nothing's going to fire it unless you disengage the safety, pull the trigger and hold it back until the hammer's gone past the half cock notch.

with anything short of a HOT 9mm load, you're taking a BIG chance, at "hand it over" distances", unless you brain him and trying to brain somebody, under such conditions, is very risky, too.

I had to round the hell out of the sharp corners of the sig, to make it comfortable and "wallet like" in my pocket. Nowadays, tho, Sig offers a properly contoured P938, for an "extra" $200. :)
 
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