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Old 11-19-2020, 01:17 PM   #1
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yt is full of vids 3-5 gun vids for shtf

but you can't carry more than one longarm. and the pack of stuff you'll always have to have with you. If you're smart, you'll have a .22lr unit, silencer and night sight for your AR. Then you dont need a .22 rifle. You never did need a shotgun when you have the AR, especially not when you have the silencer and .22 unit. You do NOT want some stupid high power bolt action sniper rifle or big game hunting rifle. The game will all be gone in a coupl of months, eaten by dog packs and people. You do NOT want to make all that noise, (shotgun either) and then have basically nothing with which to fight when your blast calls in a dozen enemies for a mile radius, That's retarded.

You want a pistol but it needs to be in a front pants pocket, so that it's concealed, out of the elements, out of the way of your pack harness and rifle (slung or in your hands). yet accessible. The pistol is worth very little once the rifles come out. If you dont want or cant afford the fighting rifle, a silenced .22l AUTORIFLE, with a night sight, subsonic ammo and enough brains to stay hidden during the day can be made to suffice. in areas with thick cover. Better avoid open terrain if shtf.

So, the money you dont waste on a .22 rifle buys the CMMG .22 unit for the AR. You can brain big animals with 223 sp's to 100m. the money you dont wast on a shotgun and long range big game rifle will buy your silnecer and tax stamp. If you have a local shop make your silencer, you'll save about $500.

Bait the deer, etc in with salt, carrots, hay, apples, Such food will "keep" for months. Snare the animals when possible. Have trotlines and nets. Best to just bait the fish to a given area with animal or fish guts, and then seine that area (at night of course). so no signs of your presence are left out for enemies to find. You can arrange for salt licks and baits for deer and big game and only service such traps at night.

If you have people who are threats, you can leave the snares set only at night, or you can quietly, at night, start removing the threats, or both. of course. If the group is 30 people but there's kids and women, that means it's a huge loss to them if you silently brain 2-3 men. If that happens 2-3 nights in a row, they'll move on, cause they'll have no option to do otherwise. Such is easily arranged when they dont have night vision and you do.
 
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Old 11-19-2020, 01:23 PM   #2
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I haven't watched any of those, but I wonder if they're talking about guns to have at home rather than bugging out with.

How much total rifle ammo (223 & 22lr) do you recommend?
 
Old 11-19-2020, 01:36 PM   #3
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the shotgun and bolt action are no loss at all. A small argument can be made for having a 300 Blackout AR and a 223 upper receiver group, or an AK or 308. The 308 has the advantage of the N guard and active military arsenals being full of 308 belts for the machine guns and nobody will want that ammo's weight and bulk. So you might be able to trade for it cheaply. It's not accurate enough for long range sniping and it's not very effective on big game. The real problem with it is that you can't have a handy, long range 308 with a silencer and there's no .22lr conversion units for 308's. You can get a single shot .32ACP caliber adapter for it, cut the barrel to 16" and add 8" of not very quiet silencer for it, but you'll have lost a lot of any range advantage it had for sniping as well as the ability to reliably expand a softpoint beyond 300m, so it wont be much good on big game, at range, either. You'll have to have a silenced .22lr pistol for small game, cats, dogs, livestock, etc.

the stuff you can take with birdshot is not worth a 12 ga shell, much less all the noise a shotgun makes. Anyone can tell the thump of a shotshell vs the crack of a rifle and what a looter will hear is "I"m stupid, almost unarmed and I"m right over here. Come kill me, it will be safe and easy for you to do".

Nobody practices enough with $1 per shot 12 ga slugs to be any good with them. If that shotgun was a rifle, would you be happy with just 8 rds? if not, why are you ok with just 8 rds of 12 ga, hmm? If men use cover, buckshot is nearly worthless at a m25m. Ditto if they are head-on prone with a helmet, at 30m, and your shotgun has a typical short 'riot" barrel. Buckshot wont pierce concealable armor. If you were inclined to be skilled with 12 ga slugs, you'd be using a silenced AR in 223 instead, practicing with 6c per shot .22's and 30c per shot 223's. (all of this is pre -virus pricing). I'm aware that lots of stuff is unavailable, both guns and ammo.

You'll have no choice of bugging in. The towns and cities will have no water, and thus, will burn if shtf. No money value means no coal, no oil, no electricity .No electricity means no pumps, no water treatment and backed up sewers. Looters will hit every structure repeatedy. Rurual homes will be no better off. Your neighbors will be the looters, before the city folk reach your area. That wil be the only difference.

Rural folks have the option of discretely, at night, caching food and supplies well away from their houses. They can likewise have a dugout-storm shelter that nobody is likely to know about, if they dig it themselves, by hand and are discrete about it about the disposal of the excavated dirt, of course. Keep it small, dont leave the holes open. You have the advantage of being able to have the gravel right there for the French drains, can dump the dirt in a creek, pond, lake, and nobody will pay attention, pre-shtf. If you have livestock, you can jerk the meat of a cow the first 2-3 days/nights of shtf. and already have some salt-licks-baited areas set for fish and deer, have the snares and netting handy. So there's some advantages to being on the edge of small towns, or within 1-2 miles of such a town, or being on a farm/ranch. But dont think that you can defend your place, much less your lifestock, because you cant.
 
 
Old 11-19-2020, 01:43 PM   #4
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there will be no safe place to leave other guns, where they will be readily accessible. You'll have to remove the bolts and cache them separatey. I recommend that you sell anything else besides your main fighting guns and a practice pistol, while you can still find suckers who will buy them. if you'll pay 3x the normal cost of primers and powder, molds, reloading dies, etc, you can still get set up to have plenty of ammo. If the supremes dont hand this to trump, you'll need a 4 year supply of practice ammo. So consider getting .177 lead pellet guns and airsoft guns, as well as a timer for same. It will save you so much money, with range fees, trips and ammo, that such "guns' pay for themselves in a couple of months, and they offer very valid practice. The .177 is for precision shooting while the airsoft is for fast draw,, fast mounting of the rifle, man vs man live completition, etc. The latter is a lot of fun and will teach you a lot about what you "thought" you knew about defending yourself with a gun.
 
Old 11-19-2020, 01:48 PM   #5
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In CO, I found it just as much fun to wait in a baited tree blind for deer, using the pocket 9mm, as it would be to do the same for an elk or bear, using the 460. Where I am, bears are rare and there's no elk or moose. I wanted to gtfo of here, for the West, but she's scared of not having a job elsewhere and there's lots of Asian women here, due to the fort. So the boarding house will not be getting sold after all. It's a pita, but it does provide a clear 30k a year.
 
Old 11-19-2020, 02:44 PM   #6
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And the fantasy continues...………………………………………..
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Old 11-19-2020, 03:59 PM   #7
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Seriously, I was just wondering that if this was a foot-traveling scenario, how much ammo would you want?
 
Old 11-19-2020, 05:59 PM   #8
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In previous years Melvin indicated that 60 rds of 5.56 plus 200 rds of .22 LR were enough to get you through the apocalypse.
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Old 11-19-2020, 06:32 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garand View Post
In previous years Melvin indicated that 60 rds of 5.56 plus 200 rds of .22 LR were enough to get you through the apocalypse.
Sometimes I wonder if his crystal ball ain't made out of crystal meth.
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Old 11-23-2020, 08:57 AM   #10
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Quote:
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In previous years Melvin indicated that 60 rds of 5.56 plus 200 rds of .22 LR were enough to get you through the apocalypse.
I remember 84 being the chosen number of 223's - a 20-rounder in the gun and two 30's as spares, all loaded two rounds down. (I personally load my AR magazines two rounds down as well.)

But I didn't remember a chosen number for the rimfire/subsonic stuff. The reason for asking about quantities was to see if it might be worth changing the actual parent caliber; going with .300BK instead of 223/5.56 in the host gun. I like the 223 and it’s my main caliber, and in normal times it has numerous advantages over the .300BK — primarily that it’s cheaper and it’s more common in retail outlets while still being adequate for my needs. But in this particular scenario where a person’s gun is a short-barreled AR and what he has literally “on him” is all that he’d have available, the 223’s advantages lessen and the .300BK’s get somewhat of a boost; not in all categories, but in most.

First off, there is one admitted downside to the .300bk in this situation, that of ammo weight, and if we were trying to carry 500 rounds of ammo, that would be a bigger issue than if we’re carrying 200 rounds. Hence my question about ammunition quantity. On a round-for-round basis, in this particular situation that’s about the only disadvantage to the .300bk option.

On to the advantages - one big advantage is that most 300bk loads aren’t as dependent on barrel length as 223 is, so a short-barrel gun like we’re talking about does better in the caliber. The biggest advantages though are in any situations that would involve the .22 conversion kit for the 223 user. Even with a suppressor, in a 10” or so gun normal .22LR ammo will be supersonic, so even suppressed it sounds like nothing other than a .22 rifle. Unless we use subsonic .22LR ammo and just live with the reduced capability. This aspect of quiet/stealthy applications is where the .300BK has huge advantages in this scenario.
- A 200-grain bullet is five times as powerful as a 40-grain bullet at the same velocity; no way around that.
- Going from full-power loads to quiet loads is literally a matter of just changing magazines. No need to swap out the bolt carrier group or dig out the conversion kit. Just do a mag change.
- No need to even momentarily take the gun out of commission to do a changeover from full-power loads to quiet loads. Changing between normal BCG to conversion kit is fairly quick & easy, but for that short time frame, the gun is non-functional.
- If doing something with the quiet loads and a need arises for more power, same thing; it’s literally instantly doable with just a magazine swap back to full power loads. This could be a literal lifesaver, if hunting squirrel or rabbit and encountering a panther or wolf (or bad guy) instead.
- No need for special rimfire magazines. Any AR magazine you have or find will work for both of your ammo options.

So power (ie, capability) with the subsonic stuff is much greater, ammo changeover (in both directions) is faster, the gun is never out of commission during changeovers, there are no extra parts or mechanisms to keep track of, and there are no special magazines needed. In every aspect except weight and ammo cost, in this scenario the .300BK with full-power and subsonic ammo options outperforms the 223 with .22 conversion.

As far as the weight disadvantage, if we’re talking about 200 rounds, it’s minor to the point of nearly irrelevant; especially when all the above advantages are factored in. The weight difference between 200 rounds of 40-grain .22LR stuff and the same quantity of 200 grain .300BK stuff is right at 4.57 lbs, which is certainly worth considering, but we also get rid of the one lb of ciener kit. That means there’s roughly 3.5 lbs difference total with 200 rounds of subsonic stuff vs 200 rounds of rimfire stuff.

Again, the 223 is my main carbine caliber and will continue to be; largely because of it’s more widespread availability, lower cost, and the fact that I shoot if out of rifle- and carbine-length barrels, not SBR’s. But (and this was the reason for my question regarding quantity of ammo carried) those advantages are irrelevant in this situation if we’re using an SBR and not going to need more ammo during the situation. And if we’re going to need it, we better be carrying it.

In this particular scenario, because of having fully functional loads in both full power and subsonic varieties available in its native caliber, the .300 is objectively the better choice; which is weird to me personally, because for decades my choice has been the 223 option.
 
Old 11-23-2020, 09:54 AM   #11
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I'm questioning Melvin's experience with the CMMG .22 conversion kit. A couple of us own the kit, but didn't it come out after Melvin went to jail, so how could he have any experience? Melvin also works on the assumption that we have not prepositioned or cached gear away from our main residence. Melvin makes far to many assumptions that may not be true.
 
Old 11-23-2020, 11:19 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garand View Post
I'm questioning Melvin's experience with the CMMG .22 conversion kit. A couple of us own the kit, but didn't it come out after Melvin went to jail, so how could he have any experience? Melvin also works on the assumption that we have not prepositioned or cached gear away from our main residence. Melvin makes far to many assumptions that may not be true.
Don't know how long the cmmg has been out, but it's basically a knockoff of the ciener as far as I can tell. I've had my ciener for probably 20 years or so now.

It was great when it came out. I've put a lot of rounds thru it and even taken small game with it a couple times, but it's not perfect & not up to a real 22 rifle by any stretch. I'm on at least my third, possibly fourth, firing pin on mine. One of the big and unsolvable problems is simply barrel twist. Most ar's have 1:7 to 1:9 twist rates nowadays, and most 22 rimfires are made with 1:16 twist, so about the only rimfire bullets that really 'like' the twist rate of the AR are the extra-heavy 60 grainers like the Aguila SSS load. And none of mine (the ciener, one cmmg AR22 pistol, and one Nordic AR22 rifle) will cycle reliably with the SSS load.

So we're stuck with choosing between the better bullet weight with greatly reduced reliability, or go with something reliable but less accurate. (Not a good thing for a small-game application) I'm lucky in that I found one load that is both acceptably accurate and reliable; remington's 38-grain subsonic load. It was my go-to load for the ciener, but it's inherently weak (just 38 grains, and at subsonic velocities even from a full-size gun, and I was shooting it from a 14.5" carbine on top of that)

The ciener has been out a long time though. Like a lot of things, it was ground-breaking at the time (70's or 80's probably..?), but not so ground-breaking anymore.
 
Old 11-23-2020, 11:48 AM   #13
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what's funny is most modern hunting rifles come with threaded barrels.

I hunt with a friend that has a suppressed bolt action .308 and another with a 6.5 Creedmore that is suppressed. Boati is really behind the times when it comes to rifles and field craft.

and night vision trumps night sights greatly.

so far, I'm not impressed, some things he gets right, but he is clearly hung up on some specific scenario.

and the front pocket pistol thing is a joke. I doubt he has ever had to do a transition from a rifle to a pistol, at least not in any capacity where it matters, especially carrying any gear.

and the out of the elements BS is laughable. Fighting gear remains accessible. down time is for maintenance and function checks.

I'd like to see a picture of his pack, even - but we know that will never happen.
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Last edited by Dorobuta; 11-23-2020 at 01:00 PM.
 
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