In 1977, I could draw, hit, reload, hit, 2.5 seconds - Arms Locker
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Old 09-07-2020, 08:22 AM   #1
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In 1977, I could draw, hit, reload, hit, 2.5 seconds

and get A's at 10 yds, quite reliably. That was a BIG deal at the time since nobody was as of yet cheating with trumpet-mouth mag well funnels and inch thick mag base plates. I had a mag pouch that slanted away from my hip, like a speed holster-rake and I inserted the mag with a base of the round first movement. This was the reverse of what Cooper taught, because it runs the risk of stripping a round out of the mag lips, enough to hang up your reload. I got around that by having the mag pouch cut low enough to let my left forefinger be out in front of the top rounds's bullet. This of course let me "feel" the front of the gun, adding to the speed of my mag swap. Since Jeff had always taught that what wins matches is obviously the thing to be doing, his oppposition to my proven speed superiority had people confused. :-)

Jeff also wanted the 243 to be the minimum level of rifle power/recoil/momentum that could be scored as having the scoring advantage of being a "major caliber". At the 80 Nationals for IPSC planning for the 81 rifle shoots, i asked why the .45's recoil factor was enough to make it a major caliber when the 223's GREATER recoil momentum and MUCH greater energy was not. All Jeff could do was glare at me. :-) I still laugh my ass off when I think about that. Ditto when I read, in a letter from him, his accusation that I'd "always been a bit too doctrinaire" Ha, compared to HIM, I was a complete free spirit.

I also challenged the idea that the Scout rifle was a combat arm (that was waf.) Jeff claimed that possession of such a rifle and skill with it made you a "citizen rather than subject" What could that POSSIBLY mean but combat, eh? The Scout rifle is not a take down, silenced, long range sniper rifle. Jeff had always said that no standard of speed of draw, hit and repeat hit with the pistl was fast enough, since misses and poor hits, as well as multiple attackers, are all commonplace events in combat situations, So how could a bolt action, slung over the shoulder, be considered adequate? He resented that line of questioning, too. :-) I'd MUCH rather have to get within 100m of a bear or lion and brain it with a silenced shorty AR than have to fight with any noisy bolt action! Since you have to have a guide with a big rifle with you, by law and also help for skinning out the critter, they can be carrying a tripod for use in tall vegetation. Then the brain hit at 100m is no big deal. It takes such critters at least 4 seconds to close with you from 100m, so you can try for the brain hit at least 10 more times. If you can't set it up that way, simply dont take the shot. There's nothing to force you to do so. However, a mere fire team of enemies, with autorifles, can easily kill you when all you have is a scout rifle. So, would you rather be out-gunned for the hunt or for the fight, hmm? Therefore, WHICH rifle makes a LOT better able to fight tyrants and their thugs? Hint, it aint the Scout Rifle.

Jeff was showing us a pic of a cape bufflao, which he'd shot with a 308 while on safari with Barry Millier, in S Africa. Jeff said, "see the hole behind his shoulder? I put that there with a 38 but the hole between his eyes, Barry put there with a .458. He said "barry told me that I could shoot a buff with a 308 but it would be like shooting a man with a 9 and he was RIGHT!".

Last edited by boati; 09-07-2020 at 08:40 AM.
 
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Old 09-07-2020, 12:00 PM   #2
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43 years ago? I'm impressed. What have you done lately? As far as Jeff Cooper, I'm sure you were on a first name basis with him and he worried constantly about your opinion.
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In 1977, I could draw,  hit, reload, hit, 2.5 seconds-brave-hunter.jpg  
 
Old 09-08-2020, 08:34 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boati View Post
...snip...
I also challenged the idea that the Scout rifle was a combat arm (that was waf.) Jeff claimed that possession of such a rifle and skill with it made you a "citizen rather than subject" What could that POSSIBLY mean but combat, eh? The Scout rifle is not a take down, silenced, long range sniper rifle.

...snip

1) nothing prevents a scout rifle from being a take down rifle.
2) a red dot serves quite well as the long eye relief optic, and are easily good beyond 100 yards.
3) the AR-15 is also not a long range sniper rifle, that role being relegated to .308 and above, though the 6.5's are starting to show up.

I doubt very seriously that many (any?) people are challenged by your opinion - opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they stink.

when your standard response is to hurl insults, you don't gain credibility, you lose it.

I think an AR platform rifle with a Low Power Variable Optic fulfills the concept of a scout rifle quite well. He was just ahead of the technology with the concept, and tried to define a niche that was already or about to be filled. Set on low power (1x) snap shots at close distances are simple. cranking up the magnification to 6,8, or 10 - depending on the optic, and you're good for longer range and more precise shots.

I'd have no problem carrying a scout rifled would not feel under gunned if that were my only option. It's the rifleman and not the rifle that matters. I always go for one shot kills on game anyway.

Last edited by Dorobuta; 09-08-2020 at 08:38 AM.
 
 
Old 09-08-2020, 11:41 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boati View Post
…and I inserted the mag with a base of the round first movement…
I don’t understand this line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boati View Post
…The Scout rifle is not a take down, silenced, long range sniper rifle…
People of his generation were slower to accept change, and Cooper personally hated any kind of change or advancement that wasn’t his idea. (Reminds me of someone else…)

That said, with more than twice the power of a CAR shorty, the .308 scout rifle is closer to being a long-range sniper rifle than a CAR shorty is. It certainly can be silenced and made in a takedown format. I always thought the magazine-fed Browning BLR takedown (model 81, I think…?) would make a neat scout gun, but I probably like lever guns more than most people do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boati View Post
…I could shoot a buff with a 308 but it would be like shooting a man with a 9...
So in other words, it’s plenty adequate…
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Old 09-08-2020, 11:43 AM   #5
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Looked it up - it was the BLR model 81 that was a takedown & could mount a scout scope:

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Old 09-08-2020, 01:20 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John in AR View Post
Looked it up - it was the BLR model 81 that was a takedown & could mount a scout scope:

That's a nice setup and would be pretty useful on just about anything you'd encounter in North America.
 
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