go try it, with pump gun. 1 on each, 3 torsos - Arms Locker
Arms Locker Gun Forum
Go Back   Arms Locker > Gun Forums > Shotguns


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-12-2016, 12:02 PM   #1
Registered User
 
Joined: May 2014
From: USA

Posts: 3,050
go try it, with pump gun. 1 on each, 3 torsos

a couple of yds apart, edge to edge, buckshot, now, at 5 yds, starting with the gun not yet shouldered, finger outside of the trigger guard, safety engaged. SEE if you can do it faster than .70 second that Miculek does the same with an AR. :-) The shotgun's SUCH an 'advantage" indoors, right? :-) That should be enough to negate the difference in skill levels, right? :-)

Also, the AR CAN be set up to be no louder than a normal 22lr rifle. The shotgun has HORRIFIC blast and flash, indoors. So you have to take the time to don your electronic muffs, or be deaf (maybe for life) and probably not hear another enemy, whom you'd BETTER detect!

The shotgun, especially the pumpgun, is nothing like as advantageous as the ignorant "think" that it is. In fact, it's nearly always an expensive handicap. given the (maybe) 80 yd effective range of the shotgun with slugs, on cover users, with rifle sights, 3/4 of your practice COULD be done with 10c per shot 22lr ammo. Figure 1/4 of it done with 50c per shot 223, and the average cost of practice is 20c per shot.

take the price of the 12 ga, luminous sights for it, and all the $1 per shot buckshot and slugs that you'd waste on getting and staying good, (from either shoulder) with the 12 ga, and that same money would easily pay for a .22 unit, silencer, and luminous sights for the AR, and 5x as much practice ammo, (for the same price as buck and slugs) and you get a gun that's a LOT more capable than any shotgun will ever be, for a fact.

and for bozos complaining about 223's "lack of adequate penetration", 223 62 gr metal capped ball will WAY outpenetrate (thru barriers) what can be attained with 00 buckshot. There's no comparison on tires, windshields, car bodies, trees, kevlar armor, etc. If 223's not enough, penetration-wise what is the buckshot? WAY inferior, that's what.

Last edited by nikto; 04-12-2016 at 12:23 PM.
 
Remove Ads
Old 04-12-2016, 12:41 PM   #2
Registered User
 
Joined: May 2004
From: Central Arkansas

Posts: 4,003
I prefer the AR platform and it's what I personally use; so we agree on that. That said, what if we 'shoe the other foot' so to speak...?

Miculek can run a revolver faster than a lot of people can run an autopistol, and can run a shotgun faster than a lot of people can run an AR. Your premise dictates that we must therefore hold the revolver and shotgun as superior to the autopistol and AR carbine. Which I don't.
 
Old 04-12-2016, 12:58 PM   #3
Registered User
 
Joined: May 2014
From: USA

Posts: 3,050
he doesn't run the AUTO shotgun enough faster than he runs the AR to matter any on man targets. , and the ammo for practice costs twice as much, without the option of the suppressor, so why bother? He doesn't run the revolver as fast as other top dogs run the auto, either. and I do NOT mean for reloads, or for more rds than the revolver holds, either. Enos and Leatham were getting .11 sec repeat hits, back in the 80's, in the 10" A zone, at 10 yds. with 175 factor 38 super loads in comp guns. jerry can't touch that with a revolver, even with wussy loads. He's doing great if he gets .13 second repeat hits, at 5 yds. Just ask him, he'll tell you.

to make the 12 ga reliably break clay pigeons, they cheat and use birdshot. Now, if that's supposed to be a cover user's head, and #2 birdshot that would be ok. But you'd need a tight choke or a Vang barrel, to make it work at 30 yds, both of which are more expense. So again, why bother? Such a tight choke means 3" patterns at 10 yds, so it's not any help at hitting men's torsos indoors. The AR can be suppressed and it can do other valuable things that the shotgun can't touch. He doesn't run the pump gun nearly as fast as others and himself run the 12 ga auto. and such autos AINT selling for any $250, either. :-) More like $1000.

Last edited by nikto; 04-12-2016 at 01:04 PM.
 
 
Old 04-12-2016, 01:07 PM   #4
Registered User
 
Joined: May 2014
From: USA

Posts: 3,050
dove loads aint waf on men wearing heavy coats, at a mere 5 yds, folks. Only a very few pellets will penetrate the coat and the ribs' sternum. dont kid yourself, the penetration of such loads is very poor. You want #4 buck indoors, if you don't want to shoot thru your house and endanger neighbors.
 
Old 04-12-2016, 01:33 PM   #5
Registered User
 
Joined: May 2004
From: Central Arkansas

Posts: 4,003
I agree that the AR is faster and imo, better; it's what I personally use. My point is simply that this whole premise is silly. The premise that since Miculek is faster with Gun X than I am with Gun Y, makes Gun X inherently the right choice for me, is baseless and irrational. Miculek is better with an M&P than I am with a 1911; that doesn't make an M&P a better gun for me personally. It's a specious argument.

Using his capabilities - or even his choices - as some arbitrary benchmark is illogical. Fact is, he's openly stated that if he could only have three firearms to do everything with, it would be a .357 revolver, a .22 rimfire rifle, and a 12-gauge shotgun. I'm not going to base my gun choices or actions on his choices, his abilities, or his preferences.

I do what I prefer, and I use what I prefer. Using them (a lot) means that I end up being better with them.
 
Old 04-12-2016, 01:55 PM   #6
Registered User
 
Joined: May 2004
From: Central Arkansas

Posts: 4,003
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikto View Post
dove loads aint waf on men wearing heavy coats, at a mere 5 yds, folks. Only a very few pellets will penetrate the coat and the ribs' sternum...
I don't (and wouldn't) use birdshot for defense, but check out starting at 2:30 in this test:

Only at 10' rather than 15', but I was frankly surprised what it did after going thru four layers of denim.

This one was kind of surprising to me as well. This one is set at 15', shooting thru thick (boot-upper) leather and four layers of denim.

Low-brass #8 bird shot penetrated the leather, the denim, and ~6" into the gel. Not ideal performance, but I wasn't expecting it to be as good as it was.

Fwiw, #4 buck is my preferred load for the rare times I choose a shotgun. Just wanting to caution any who think that birdshot can't hurt you...
 
Old 04-12-2016, 03:12 PM   #7
Registered User
 
Joined: May 2014
From: USA

Posts: 3,050
jerry doesn't think in terms of taking big game, or riots or shtf.

I use jerry to point out that the "magic" that guys "think" comes with a 12 ga pump is bs, so my argument is not specious, not at all. i"ve said many times that the longarm is bs, until shtf, and then it needs to be a silenced autorifle, and for all but a very few, the best longarm for shtf is a silenced, short barreled .22lr takedown autorifle, cause their only chance is to remain undetected.

People "think" that (somehow) the shotgun removes the need for ability with the handgun, but it does not do so. If you had the time to run and get any longarm, you could also have run up to the guy and emptied the pistol's mag into him. The pistol can be with you always. So it should take preference in the expenditure of time and money

Hand to hand skills are important, too, and few have any. there's lots of places you can't (or wont) take a gun and lots of situations that are MUCH better handled by karate than with a gun. Just ask George Z if he'd rather be back to his normal life, after having kicked the punk in the guts and walked away, rather than have his life ruined by shooting the punk
 
Old 04-12-2016, 03:17 PM   #8
Registered User
 
Joined: May 2014
From: USA

Posts: 3,050
hurting is not what it's about. Once you have to shoot somebody, you want him dead, basically, and you want him dead instantly. Then he aint crying to a civil jury from a wheelchair, or arguing in criminal court about how it all went down. Small birdshot aint all that likely to kill him, unless the range is so close that the pellets hit like a slug, ie, 5 ft and less. Goose load #2's are what I'd use, all around, and not bother with buckshot at all. If it was beyond 30 ft, tho, I'd aim at a man's head and neck, like turkey hunter's do.
 
Old 04-12-2016, 04:21 PM   #9
Registered User
 Garand's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2004
From: Canadian Badlands

Posts: 8,067
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikto View Post
a couple of yds apart, edge to edge, buckshot, now, at 5 yds, starting with the gun not yet shouldered, finger outside of the trigger guard, safety engaged. SEE if you can do it faster than .70 second that Miculek does the same with an AR.
Really this proves nothing! Its all about the fantasy that you have about your ability. If there ever is an apocalyptic event, it won't be like the IPSC fantasy that you think, nobody can dictates the events that happen in any of the 50+ possibilities that could happen in an apocalyptic event. A very small percentage of the population are shooters these days, if annual duck hunting keeps up their knowledge of the shotgun they own, they are better off for it.
 
Old 04-15-2016, 04:39 PM   #10
Registered User
 Terry G's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2004

Posts: 4,367
Nitko's argument actually boils down to he is recoil and noise sensitive to the point where he flinches badly when subjected to either. He has said this in many posts going back years. Hence the need for suppressors and rifles of slight recoil. You'll notice he never thinks any caliber larger than .223 is needed for anything. Any rifle of .30 caliber "beats you up" too badly. Shotguns recoil badly and are very loud. He even recommended a .22 rifle for hunting Pheasants rather than a shotgun.
 
Reply

  Arms Locker > Gun Forums > Shotguns


Thread Tools
Display Modes






Powered by vBulletin 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright © 2003 - 2011 Arms Locker. All rights reserved.