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Old 04-11-2016, 12:09 PM   #1
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1978, had 12 ga 1100

cut the barrel to 20". loaded with 00 buck, fired 3 rds at 50 yd torso, 18"x24", and 6"x6" head. Centered, according to the dust clouds from the backstop. Out of those 27 pellets, how many struck the vitals, and how many struck elsewhere?
 
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Old 04-11-2016, 01:16 PM   #2
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Didn't like the 1100, used one from '82-'86 on the first EOD team I was on. Found it very ammunition sensitive.
 
Old 04-11-2016, 01:25 PM   #3
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try the same with any unchoked 12 ga and standard 00 buck load. the results will be the same. NOT ONE hit anywhere on the torso or head.
 
 
Old 04-11-2016, 02:27 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikto View Post
try the same with any unchoked 12 ga and standard 00 buck load. the results will be the same. NOT ONE hit anywhere on the torso or head.
Shotguns are too loud and they kick too much. Better with airsoft.
 
Old 04-11-2016, 04:32 PM   #5
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I've never been that much of a shotgun person.

However I've mostly preferred the Remington 870 of the vintage right before they went to MIM extractors. Followed by the Mossberg 500/600 series.

Also like Improved Cylinder or Modified, depending on use/configuration, NOT cylinder bore. In my uses they are either a niche specialty tool set up for specific/limited purposes.
 
Old 04-11-2016, 06:06 PM   #6
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riot barrels of any shotgun, try this. You'll see. They are completely worthless at a mere 50 yds, and they are not to be trusted even at 25 yds. at best, at that range, you'll get a couple of hits in the vitals and 1-2 more in the guts/shoulder. Given that, at such a range, they are hitting no harder than 380 ball, 2 hits is not anything to bet your life upon.

The shotgun is much, much too limited-use a weapon to even bother owning, basically. It's a toy, for teaching kids and women to like shooting. To wit, 3/4 oz loads in a gas op auto, with a stock that fits the shooter and a recoil pad, for shooting hand trapped clay birds. THAT, it does pretty well. They LOVE to break those birds and will tolerate the effort and noise to keep doing it. If you add about 3 lbs of lead shot to a single shot 20 gauge forend and buttstock, and a GOOD recoil pad, it will be ok for most such shooters, given the 3/4 oz skeet load, and save you the additional $300 probably spent on a used autoloader. But don't overdo this. You dont want them learning the sloppy trigger control that comes with shotgun usage. 2-3 sessions with the hand-trapped clay birds, , then start them with .22 autorifle on metal spinning targets, or if money is tight, on .177 or airsoft guns. Use as target something that they can SEE the effect of their shot, tho. they get bored, really fast, with paper targets.

Last edited by nikto; 04-11-2016 at 06:10 PM.
 
Old 04-12-2016, 07:43 AM   #7
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Actually with the buffered loads they tend to group tighter than that at the 25yd range. Notice I said tend to as individual barrels and ammunition can vary widely at times. However shotgun barrels on a mass produced scale have gotten better. Of course that's a relative term but getting a pattern that covers 1/4 to 1/3 of the chest area is not unheard of anymore.

Still I agree that they are not a long range or even moderate range weapon. Set one up as a dedicated slug gun and you might as well have a rifle.

The biggest problem is time and laziness or ignorance about what some think a shotgun will do and the one they own will actually do. Never test point of aim vs. point of impact of the pattern or pattern size with different brands or types of buck shot.

Not sure if you remember that schmuck that went by Blain on Patriot Network and a few other survival boards who thought a shotgun could handle every single need post SHTF. He always made a post with a "!" exclamation mark in the header. How the hell could he manage to have all the different barrels, choke tubes and ammo do all that handy all the time?

I think one time he asked about what slug was good for elephant ....that and maybe reptoids from the hollows of the inner earth....roflmao.
 
Old 04-12-2016, 08:56 AM   #8
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I remember him. I seemed to have got the notion, dunno where or how, that he was gay? anyway, the silenced 22, using subsonic ammo is superior to birdshot as a foraging tool, even without the risk of enemies, cause it uses up less of your ammo stash, and it doesn't scare off game. When you add in the risk of hostiles, having nothing more than a shotgun (or bolt action) with which to fight is just stupid. The .22, even silenced and with subsonic loads, aint much of a fighting tool, but it can be made to suffice a lot better than is the case with the shotgun.
 
Old 04-12-2016, 09:22 AM   #9
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Personally, I greatly prefer to have the options offered by the silenced, scoped, shorty 223 AR and .22lr unit. over just a silenced, scoped .22lr. The 223 can snipe effectively to 1/4 mile, it can reliably take deer to 30-30 distances and a single hit with it (pretty much anywhere, with a softpoint) is devastating to an attacker. 1-2 buckshot pellet hits are not.

One chooses a shotgun out of ignorance and inability with the rifle, and unwillingness/inability to make/acquire a silencer. Along with willful blindness about the probability of the enemy noticing that all you have is a dumbass shotgun, and just opening up the range, enough to render your shotgun essentially worthless (ie, 25 yds, if using cover, or with a helmet, head on prone, 30 yds. That is very short range, and very stupid of you to "think" that all your fighting will be done at such range.

Yes, there's a $2000 silencer for a shotgun, but it aint quiet, especially not with normal (supersonic) 12 ga loads. With subsonic (ie, 400 fps slower) loads, birdshot is VERY limited in effective range on game and birds (ie, 20 yds) This silencer is huge and heavy, so, basically, it ruins the fast-handling qualities of the shotgun.

Shotgun sights and trigger pulls are bad jokes. The safeties don't actually block the sear or hammer, either. Slugs cost $1 per shot, so nobody's really skilled with them. Therefore, using slugs does NOT extend the range of the shotgun nearly as much as people "think" that they do. With just a bead sight, the slugs MIGHT be ok to 40 yds or so, on fully-expose men, not on cover-users. With rifle sights, slugs can reach maybe to 80 yds, which range is still a fairly easy snapshot on the head with a silenced .22. But if the enemy is using cover, the slugs are far less able to extend your range, maybe 50 yds with rifle sights.

The shotgun gives you no option to quietly remove a sentry, guard dog, scout, etc, which the silenced .22 CAN handle. So, fans of the shotgun are just deluding themselves about its "versatility".

kPlastic shotshells collapse if left stored in an extended magazine. That's why Army buckshot comes in solid brass cases. The pie crimp lets in moisture, so you have to one by one seal each rd that you keep ready for use. To be fair, the same is true of .22lr rds, and it's harder to do with the .22's, too.

The huge size and heavy weight of the 12 ga shells just precludes your having enough slugs and buck for much of a fight. If you only intend to be out hunting for a day, maybe you'll only bother to carry 8-10 rds of birdshot. but if you had a rifle for would you be happy with just 50 rds? Of course you wouldn't, eh? You'd insist on at least 100 rds. well, 100 rds of buck and slugs is 11 lbs! So no, you aint talking about having that many shotgun shells. Yet, if the enemy has cover and is more than 25 yds away, what you have, (because you have to use slugs) is VERY poor capability as a "rifle". Because you want buckshot for the ranges you THINK the fight will be restricted-to, you wont have even 50 rds of slugs. So, WHEN, not if, the fight is at such longer ranges, you quickly run out of slugs. Also, your continuity of fire sucks, having to SLOWLY reload a tubular mag every 7-8 shots. Try that with gloves on, in the dark, in the rain, in the mud/snow while prone, some time, or with one hand disabled. Platt put up a very good fight with just one arm and a Mini-14, eh? If all he'd had was a pump gun, he'd have accomplished almost nothing, which is all that mirules accomplished with his shotgun, until the bled out, unarmed robbers let Mirules (who'd been hit in the shoulder with a 223 ball rd) stagger up and execute them, at 3-6 ft of range

3) 30 rd mags of 223 weigh 3 lbs, loaded and ready. the .22 unit is 3/4 lb and 25 rds of the subsonic Aquila 22 ammo weighs 1/4 lb. Since you are saving 6 lbs on ammo weight and if you like, 3 lbs of silenced carbon fiber AR vs the 12 ga, you have the ability to also have armor, night vision, etc, for the same carry load.

the shotgun can't do the job of eithe the pistol or the rifle, so it's just an additional expense and time waster. it can't be concealed or used with just hand hand, and it can't reach out like the rifleman can. So why bother with it?

Last edited by nikto; 04-12-2016 at 09:30 AM.
 
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