carguy

This is a topic that has generated some interest over at Gabe Suarez forum, and after some reading, it has my curiosity piqued as well.

For those who live in legislation-restricted areas, or maybe even for those who prefer such a platform, the lever action seems to have some interesting advantages.

Was curious as to what you all thought about the caliber discussion: i.e., .357, .44, or traditional .30-30. To my mind, it would be more beneficial to have a .44 or .357, reasoning being that the gun could do double duty with .38 or .44 Special. Being able to load both a handgun and a carbine out of the same cartridge box seems a useful idea, too; cuts down on logistics somewhat.

Thoughts?

SciuirseMorrigna

I would say it depends on what range you need to be able to achieve.

If you need more than 100 meters range, something above the .357 or .44 Magnum are really called for.

.30-30 tends to be cheap, and the new .308 Marlin Express can really give you some reach that other tube-fed leverguns can't match. If you go with the Savage 99, or BLR, now you can go with some real good cartridges.


However, if everything is going top be close, then a .357 wheelgun matched to a levergun would be a better choice. Ballistics are adequate at closer ranges and the increased capacity over the rifle rounds would be nice to have.


Hopwever, other than the advantage of only having to buy or load one type of ammunition, if everything is going to be that close, I might prefer a Rem 870 with their 21" barrel, with rifle sights and an IC choke installed. Buckshot is devastating up close, and slugs -- especially with the rifle sights -- are easy to hit with to 100 meters, and are also going to deliver major damage.

Garand

I probably expend about 1,000 rds a year through both .44 mag and .357 lever action rifles. I also have levers in .38-55, .32-40 and .45-70 that I use frequently. Not all pistol caliber carbines are created alike, for example my Browning B92 is marked on the barrel .357 and that is all it will feed reliably. I also have a .38 Special/.357 Puma that will feed anything going.

My wife has no problem with the Browning and can reliably engage targets out to 75 yards consistantly. I use either my .44 mag Marlin M1894S or my .44 mag 1906 mfg Winchester M92 and have no problem engaging out to 100 yds. I use the Puma for indoor matches out to 35 yards.

carguy

A shotgun is a must have, in my opinion.

The idea of a lever action being legal, or at least socially acceptable has appeal for me for a number of reasons. The biggest right now is the field I work in could require me to move (due to the uncertain economic times) to areas that are not gun friendly sometime in the foreseeable future, at least for a while.

This would likely be the typical urban area, where shots above 100 yards would be unlikely.

While it is not something I would choose to do, I would much prefer to "suck it up" until such time as things are better, rather than watch my family go without. A lever action/revolver combo are legal and/or socially acceptable just about everywhere, where my M-14 or AK would not be.

Unalist

Lever actions last time I checked are legal in all 50 states. A cowboy combo in 357 or 44 are going to be little problem to resupply from wal-mart. Some even have mounts for lights ect if you want to go that route. I still prefer (ideally) 5.56mm to cover the intermediate ground from "45ACP/12ga to 7.62mm range" if you will. Even if I'm in a gun hostile area as long as it's not blatenly illegal the only people to see my weapons are when I'm using them. So I'm at the range/hunting or you've decided come after me in my territory. What I'm saying is I'm not going to be walking around downtown attracting attention with an assualt rifle.

SciuirseMorrigna

The only problem is if he uses it in a non permissive environment, he's going to prison and his family is going without, just like he was trying to avoid.

In such a case, i may keep an assault rifle handy, but only break it out if the S truly H's the F, and we have to bug out, possibly shooting our way out.

A lesser problem, like break ins and general unrest, I'd use the acceptable weapon.

Garand

Lever actions are very low profile and nobody really gives them a second look at the range when you are practicing. There are a large number of gunsmiths in North America that specialize in "slicking" up a good lever gun. A note about Winchester M92 style rifles, trim you right thumb nail, other wise you will regret it during quick reloading.

arebindixie

Garand, is the Puma a good rifle and is it basically the same as the old Rossi? I've stumbled across a couple that seemed to be pretty good deals.

Garand

I've used my Puma in 5 matches this year and it has performed flawlessly. Mind you, I had a gunsmith slick it up and add a "John Wayne" loop lever. It eats anything I feed it, both .38 special & .357.

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andy

A pump is faster. Someone used to make a pump 357 (Timberwolf?) DPMS makes a pump version of the CAR-15, too. I THINK that the Air Force (Maremont?) 22 unit could be made to work in it, too.

T. Daves

I own 2 marlins, one is a 336 in 30-30 and the other is a 1894 in .357. Both have the straight grip. I would not think twice about using either one for defensive work if it was necessary.

Garand

Another thing that I enjoy about shooting a lever in .357 or .44, is the fact that it is easy to get women interested in shooting. I have had given a dozen or more novice shooters their first kick at the cat with these carbines and all have left wanting more trigger time. My wife liked it so much, she started shooting single action .357's and double barrel 16 gauges and competes in Cowboy action matches with me.

vaguard

I absolutely agree with Garand that most people don't even give lever guns a second look. Even though I have an AK and an AR and a (fill in other guns here) my Marlin 336 is the rifle I love. Light weight, quick on target and very deadly. Fits hunting needs and self defense what else could you ask for? Here is a company I have had do some additions for me:

http://www.wildwestguns.com/index.html

arebindixie

I like lever guns and those in .30-30 and .35 Remington can still be found relatively cheap. In my region, .30-30 ammo is not terribly expensive and it is available wherever ammunition is sold. From the standpoint of actually shooting and carrying it, I much prefer a Marlin 336 to an SKS.

SciuirseMorrigna

I may never own another levergun. My God, even used .30-30s are through the roof price-wise.

Before a .22 gets mentioned, I have a Marlin 39A -- IMO the best .22LR on the market, period.

But It'd be sorrowful to have to pay current prices for one.

vaguard

Do you have a pic of your gun? Like to see it.

7of7

I have a 94 in .357, and a 30-30... love the guns... just need to load the 357's down a bit so they will stop leadding the bore... It comes out really easy... so I just need to adjust the velocity some... or switch to jacketed... (will have to get the swaging setup for those...
In my 30-30, I make a really nice 130 grain bullet... I run it at about 2300 to 2400 fps... can shoot it all day long,.. and it will shoot!!

I also have a 1906 .22LR... my dad taught me how to shoot with it, and his dad gave it to him and his brother, when they were 7 and 8 years old.. or 8 and 9 years old... something un-heard of these days because guns are way to dangerous for youngsters to have... (unless they are taught how to be responsible)

Fine shooting... all around... the 357 does great with 38's, and when I was at the range, I let one little guy who was there with his dad shoot it a few times.. He loved it... ear to ear grin.. of course, the 38's had virtually no recoil...

SciuirseMorrigna

No pics of it. It's just a run of the mill model, iron sights and all.

Garand

I've talked with a couple of people that have used the Timberwolf and the new Italian copy and they have not been found to be durable or quick in the long one.

As for speed gunkid, remember my posting from June 2004; "Last time I shot a man on man stage at a Cowboy action match at 5 targets between 15-50 yds with a Marlin M1894S, starting with an empty chamber it took me 6.83 seconds to hit targets 1 to 5. While all firearms should be used within their limitations, an armed hostile should never be discounted."

themadride

A couple of years ago I sent one of my photographers on an assignment to cover a cowboy action event for one of my magazines. With all the talk of lever actions and the like, I thought I would post a few pictures for ya'll.
(FYI Rich - I have the rights and releases for these pics)















I've never owned a lever action, although I have shot them, and I have never attended a shoot, but if I had the time I think they would be a lot of fun.

arebindixie

I bought a Marlin 30 AS today for $160; it came with a box of cartridges.

vaguard

Those are some fantastic pics! Thanks themadride!!

Garand

excellent pics, Cowboy action is a way to get more range time while being "politically correct"!

7of7

I'd make a pretty fat cowboy... LOL
It does look fun and the pictures are excellent!!

Garand

Actually you would probably fit right in. Most Cowboy shooters are in their 40's & 50's and the males carry a bit of padding! Most of us can't beat the march of time...

John in AR

(Fwiw, my first post here in quite a while. Just killing time post-Thanksgiving-dinner at a family member's house & surfing the net and figured I'd check out armslocker...)

I'm a big fan of the rossi/puma leverguns. Have 16-inchers in .357 and .44, and a 20-inch stainless in .454 Casull. My experiences match Garand's exactly - there's not one of the three that I wouldn't trust my life with if necessary.

Loaded properly, the .454 version is actually more powerful than a .308 or .45-70 either one. This is mine, with my ruger srh after I had the srh barrel shortened to 5 inches. There's not an animal in North America that can't be taken out to 150 yards or more with a .454 levergun:


The 16" in .357 with bushnell red dot scout-mounted makes a very fast brush gun. Handgun is a 681 in a Milt Sparks PMK:


In addition to scout-mounting a red-dot, I also had the .357's mag tube shortened & the barrel threaded to accept an artificial-environment suppressor, the titanium abraxas:


A major thing I like about about the 16" versions is their compactness - this is the .357 version before I put the reddot on it. Even with the suppressor in place, it's still the same size as a stock 10-22:
.

This is all three - 20-inch stainless in .454 on top, 16" .44 in the middle, and 16" .357 on bottom:


Nothing bad to say about any of them except that I wish they used a faster twist rate so I could use heavier bullets when loading subsonic .357's for use thru the suppressor. With their slow 1:30 twist rate (which is still faster than Marlin's 1:38 twist rate), I don't use bullets heavier than 158's in it; but 158's at 1,000 fps is still about .45 hardball power, which is fine for a short-range critter getter.

When not using the suppressor, I use full-power loads which in a .357 carbine more than equal a .44 magnum revolver - good for darn near anything in my area. Very versatile little carbines.

DJetAce

Now there is a way Andy can get range time.

Cowboy action shooting. Use cap-n-ball pistols and revolver carbines with cap-n-ball actions, and muzzle loading shotguns.

While I have a few lever guns, sadly all my revolvers are DA swingouts. And my Marlin 30/30 has a Wild West peep sight. Not exactly western.

SciuirseMorrigna

Would he be limited to ML shotguns?

I've seen some (albeit antiques and not a great choice, money-wise) that were rated for black powder cartridges only.

Garand

That is a very nice selection of levers there!!

John in AR

Thanks. Good to see some of the old members around here - we bought a business in my industry in early 2009 and I've been neck-deep in work since then.

Shame (but not a surprise) to see andy being andy still. I actually got a polite & friendly PM from him a few weeks ago that I just found last night when I logged on here; but for whatever reason he just refuses to stay polite when the conversations are public. Oh well - "you can lead a horse to water" & all that...

Anyway, I've really gotten more into non-combat firearms in the last few years - leverguns and even single-shot carbines. I just this week picked up one of these in .45LC which is one of my favorite handgun calibers:


That's an H&R, but I've had equally good luck with NEF & even Rossi single-shots as well, in .357 magnum, .223, and 7.62x39 as well. For a handy, quick little brush gun, I've come to appreciate the exposed-hammer carbines lately.

John in AR

Not to hijack too much, but this one is one of my favorites. It's an H&R in .357 magnum that I had shortened & threaded to accept my 9mm suppressor for use with subsonics:


This is it without the suppressor. Barrel shortened just to 16.5" to avoid paperwork & tax issues:


Obviously meant as primarily a short-range gun, but it'll hit 240-yard gongs with surprising regularity, even shooting subsonic .38-level rounds. Holdover is measured in feet rather than inches doing that, but it does its part if the shooter does his.

Without the suppressor in place, with full-power .357's it is a pretty-capable brush gun pushing 140-grain bullets to 2,000 fps; more than 1200 ft/lbs of energy.

Sorry for the ramble - I've just really come to appreciate these simple non-combat guns lately & thought I'd share.

Garand

Well Gunkid, is Gunkid and he will never change. As I have mentioned before, most of us consider his ideas as ridiculous if not downright silly and stupid at times, but he does get the postings bumped up as we debunk his "theories". He generates talk and that is a good thing. I hope Lash will cut him some slack in the future, when Gunkid gets back here.

arebindixie

John, I like the single shots too. Garand, I agree. I enjoy reading some of his posts and they do inspire discussion.

1911sr

We have a pair of 30-30s in the armoury. One a Winchester and the other a Marlin.
These two pictured belong to my Brother. Both Navy Arms 44-40s. The log book on the lever action shows a 200gr bullet at 1,500fps. I know its here somewhere, but I can't find the logbook on the pistol.



It look like old GK doesn't know that the Timberwolf was made by IMI, but then he doesn't know anything except what he's read, no?

I'd really like to get my Brother a .41 Magnum lever action to match his revolver. This is his. Its a Lew Horton Astra Limited Edition. Wayyy to heavy for me.



So should I be looking for a Marlin for the best deal and quality?

1911sr

DJetAce

f I was to make a fighting levergun it would be either a Marlin 18 inch barrel 30/30 or a Marlin 1894 .357.

The 30/30 would be the over-the-counter ammo gun. Plenty of good ammo from Leverevolution to plain soft point 150s. Just add a Skinner peep sight. I do wish someone would make a tac-star type side saddle for 4 or 6 rounds on the left side of the receiver.

The .357 would be the 'carbine'. Bullfao Bore makes a 158 grain soft point that gets over 2100 fps from a 18.5 inch marlin and that's mighty good. But BB ammo can't be found at the local hardware store!

Regular .357 magnums are good but past 100 yards you have better know your trajectory very well!

Of the two, I'd perfer the 30/30 levergun. Just so easy to get good 30/30 ammo and the short 18 inch marlin still holds 6 rounds in the tube mag.

Garand

Marlins in .41 Magnum are very hard to find. You can't beat Marlin for quality though. I put 9,500 rds through my Marlin M1894S before I broke the front firing pin, the back part of the firing pin lasted another 1,500 rds. I have since bought a 1 piece firing pin for the rifle and 2,000 rds more down range and it is still singing. Thats the only thing that has gone wrong with that rifle. Mind you, if you want to buy junk, buy a post 64 Winchester lever gun!!

Garand

Levers are a good choice if you work within their limitations. Mine are as follows;

1) Shilo Sharps #3 Sporting Rifle in .45-70
2) Marlin M1894S in .44 magnum
3) Winchester M92 in .44 magnum (DOM 1906)
4) Puma M92 in .357 magnum
5) Browning B92 in .357 magnum
6) Winchester Model 1894 in .38-55 (DOM 1906)
7) Winchester M94 in .32-40 (John Wayne Commemorative)

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7of7

Where did you get the mount for the red dot?

John in AR

It was made by Puma for the Pumas, but has since been discontinued. Wish it hadn't been - I'd really like to put a scout scope on the .454 version since it has the longer 20" barrel which makes it the least compact of the three anyway.

You might shop around & be able to find one - I don't know if the same mount fit all Pumas or if they were caliber- (or frame-size ) specific.

BannyWiliamila

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