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Old 08-24-2016, 04:03 PM   #1
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MANY a man is bigger.

and bears aint got knives or guns and aint allowed to walk right next to you on the street or in a building, either. So WHY claim a 45-70 is "needed" for one, but a .38 snub is adequate for the other, hmm?

http://www.defenders.org/black-bear/basic-facts

the higher weights are normally from bears readying themselves for hibernation. No reason at all to consider a fat bear harder to stop. Females are just as common as males. So the average weight is gonna be 150 lbs, or less, certainly 200 lbs or less.
 
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Old 08-24-2016, 04:21 PM   #2
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do you have a point, or are you just babbling?
 
Old 08-25-2016, 05:14 AM   #3
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Have to allow for the fact that on a pound-for-pound basis, wild animals are usually a whole lot tougher than humans; which is why (on a straight physical-attack danger basis) a 200-lb mountain lion or bear carries a lot more threat than a 200-lb walmart clerk.

Not just a predator-animal thing either - we've all see even deer run away at a full sprint after taking a thoracic thru-&-thru with a .30-06 or 7mm magnum softpoint. People often live thru that kind of hit and some even make some distance, but I've never heard of someone sprinting a quarter mile after a chest thru-&-thru with a full MBR-caliber softpoint that way. Man-size deer do it on a regular basis.
 
 
Old 08-25-2016, 05:48 AM   #4
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that's right, which is why the 454 and .44 mag vs bears is a bs claim. you have to hit the brain to have a reasonable expectation of stopping a charge and such guns make such hitting harder. They are also next to worthless vs the 20,000x more likely attack by men or dogs.
 
Old 08-25-2016, 06:52 AM   #5
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I would rather stake my life on a .454 or .44 mag on my hip than be silly and try to take it down with a 9mm or a 5.56mm like some would trying to take down a bear. As for the .38 Special unless it is loaded with +P+, I would personal consider it to be at the bottom of defensive calibers. If you ever have to shoot to defend your life, you want to put your adversary down as fast as possible.
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Old 08-25-2016, 07:24 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garand View Post
I would rather stake my life on a .454 or .44 mag on my hip than be silly and try to take it down with a 9mm or a 5.56mm like some would trying to take down a bear. As for the .38 Special unless it is loaded with +P+, I would personal consider it to be at the bottom of defensive calibers. If you ever have to shoot to defend your life, you want to put your adversary down as fast as possible.
I DO tend to have a preference for loadings like the Buffalo Bore/Underwood hard cast FP in the.38 Special/9x18/9x19... My reasoning is and always has been that penetration is at LEASTas important as expansion or fragmentation when you're dealing with dangerous animals(or determinedtwo legged threats )... As long as the guns are sufficiently strong,t he loadings perform without abusing the gun (or shooter)and one can get the hits
Of course,if it's all the same to me if a shooting is unnecessary. Nothing wrong with an encounter that ends without having to kill.
 
Old 08-25-2016, 07:30 AM   #7
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that's right, which is why the 454 and .44 mag vs bears is a bs claim. you have to hit the brain to have a reasonable expectation of stopping a charge and such guns make such hitting harder. They are also next to worthless vs the 20,000x more likely attack by men or dogs.
Fwiw, in our area, bear are less likely to be encountered than feral hogs. The 'head shot' (ie 'cranial bone') thing is a real consideration for both, and is one reason I like the heavy caliber in a woods gun. A 9mm, 45acp, etc are completely in my comfort zone for anti-personnel defense, but on a hog or bear with their massively thick skulls, I want more thump; as long as it's running at a decent velocity. Reason I carry a .454 is because in the woods I prefer a DA revolver to an auto. Right or wrong, itís simply reality and one of those ďit is what it isĒ things. I do carry it with reduced loads running 900 ft/lbs rather than the typical 1800-2000 ft/lbs of full 454 loads. With those reduced loads, with that gunís heavy frame, and frankly with my wrist strength, good hit speed isnít much of a problem. And the >1300fps velocity reduces the likelihood of bullet deflection from heavy bones, compared to a slower bullet of the same diameter.

That said, if weather permits, Iíll be bush-hogging a bunch this weekend, and since snakes are the main issue in those circumstances, will actually be carrying a gun on pretty much the opposite end of the spectrum; a mini-1911 loaded with shot loads. (If it doesn't rain again - I've been trying for the past two weeks to get this bush-hogging done...) Never found a 9mm shot load that will reliably cycle an auto, but the CCI .45 shot loads run fine in my old detonics, so thatís what I use them in.

Even allowing that on rare occasions I use the 1911 for shot-load use, that variance in desired load types (light, heavy, snake shot, whatever) is part of why I prefer a revolver as a woods gun 99% of the time. It lets me use any type of load I want, including shot loads and loads from 200 to 2,000 ft/lbs, with complete reliability; something an auto doesnít give me.

Curious why a .44 or .454 would be considered Ďnext to worthlessí against dogs or men. Because of power levels or because of being a revolver thing? I hugely prefer an auto for defensive use, but imo revolvers can do just fine also.
 
Old 08-25-2016, 08:14 AM   #8
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Maybe Melvin gets a commission on the mighty pocket 9.
 
Old 08-25-2016, 08:36 AM   #9
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you're foolishly hung up on the idea that bears are the main threat. men and dogs are 20,000x more likely to attack you and the men are far more deadly. Furthermore, you assume that you'll get that big club in your hand in time, which sure as hell aint likely. and then you assume that body shots will suffice, when they probably wont. So, basically, you're ignorant of the facts of the matter.
 
Old 08-25-2016, 08:49 AM   #10
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same krap different day
 
Old 08-25-2016, 09:20 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justme View Post
you're foolishly hung up on the idea that bears are the main threat.
You didnít even read what I wrote, did you? I specifically said just the opposite, that they're LESS likely to be encountered than hogs; and yes, hogs are even less likely to be encountered than feral dogs. Don't know about your area, but here, feral dogs are much-more-often encountered in the woods than hostile humans.


Quote:
Originally Posted by justme View Post
...Furthermore, you assume that you'll get that big club in your hand in time, which sure as hell aint likely.
Why on earth not? It's on my body with its grip about three inches from my navel, with no snaps or straps to undo:

Carried on-body like that, accessible with no encumbrances, in the same position I've carried it for years, what would prevent me from reaching it?

As far as it being a "big club", hardly. I've mentioned before about having had it shortened years ago:



Quote:
Originally Posted by justme View Post
...and then you assume that body shots will suffice, when they probably wont.
Once again - if you had bothered to read and process what I wrote rather than jump to bias-based conclusions, you would know that I said just the opposite. I specifically said that the thick cranial bones on hogs & bears were a real part of my thoughts. How in the world does that lead you to think that I assume body shots will suffice?


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Originally Posted by justme View Post
So, basically, you're ignorant of the facts of the matter.
Seriously? You twice in this very post claimed that I said or thought something that was the exact opposite of what I actually DID say.

Done out of either ignorance on your part or malice on your part; curious which one...?
 
Old 08-25-2016, 12:26 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justme View Post
you're foolishly hung up on the idea that bears are the main threat. men and dogs are 20,000x more likely to attack you and the men are far more deadly. Furthermore, you assume that you'll get that big club in your hand in time, which sure as hell aint likely. and then you assume that body shots will suffice, when they probably wont. So, basically, you're ignorant of the facts of the matter.

Melvin, YOU, alone appear to be hung up on bears, YOU, alone talk about having a big club in your hand, YOU are the one ignorant to the facts. We all live in different geographical areas which in turn means that we would face different day to day complications in our live if the balloon ever went up". People here have experience with bears, with, feral hogs, with snakes, with dogs and other predators. Melvin, you have no idea what individuals are capable of when confronted with obstacles or the resources open to them. We don't all surrender to the nearest meter maid like you did!
 
Old 08-25-2016, 02:13 PM   #13
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Might be able to shoo away a little black bear with a pocket nine but a big mean mad grizz with his head swinging side to side makes a mighty small target you would be just another lunch for him, that is if he could stop laughing at the little gun.
 
Old 08-26-2016, 08:44 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by John in AR View Post
You didnít even read what I wrote, did you?

...Why on earth not? It's on my body with its grip about three inches from my navel, with no snaps or straps to undo

...Carried on-body like that, accessible with no encumbrances, in the same position I've carried it for years, what would prevent me from reaching it?

...I specifically said that the thick cranial bones on hogs & bears were a real part of my thoughts. How in the world does that lead you to think that I assume body shots will suffice?

...Done out of either ignorance on your part or malice on your part; curious which one...?
Still waiting for a response...
 
Old 08-26-2016, 10:50 AM   #15
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Don't think we will ever get a decent answer
 
Old 08-26-2016, 11:35 AM   #16
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Don't think we will ever get a decent answer
When he get's whipped (often) he won't respond at all.
 
Old 08-27-2016, 09:13 AM   #17
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oh yeah, and SO MANY people get attacked by grizzlies, right? 5 a year in the lower 48 states and almost all of those were provoked by some sort of stupidity.
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Old 08-27-2016, 02:41 PM   #18
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Melvin, I just started watching Season 02 of "Alone", you remind me of the guy in Episode 1, who punched out on the first day. He had an irrational fear of bears also.
 
Old 08-27-2016, 02:53 PM   #19
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I dunno...to me ,at least; there's no such thing as an " irrational" fear(or at least,respect) for bears...hell,they scare me.
 
Old 08-27-2016, 04:16 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justme View Post
oh yeah, and SO MANY people get attacked by grizzlies, right? 5 a year in the lower 48 states and almost all of those were provoked by some sort of stupidity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John in AR View Post
You didnít even read what I wrote, did you?

...Why on earth not? It's on my body with its grip about three inches from my navel, with no snaps or straps to undo

...Carried on-body like that, accessible with no encumbrances, in the same position I've carried it for years, what would prevent me from reaching it?

...I specifically said that the thick cranial bones on hogs & bears were a real part of my thoughts. How in the world does that lead you to think that I assume body shots will suffice?

...Done out of either ignorance on your part or malice on your part; curious which one...?
Still waiting for a response...
 
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