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Old 07-26-2016, 06:00 AM   #1
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govt model seems a bit much in 1911

for the 9mm. It's about the right weight and bulk to really control a .45 load, the full power one. It was a mistake to practice with 200 grs at 800 fps and then, on match day, move up to 230 grs at 800 fps. Should use a slightly MORE powerful load for the week before practice. It's also a mistake to practice at the ragged edge of speed/getting A's, as I used to do. The adrenalin of match pressure then causes lots of C's and D's. Should practice a bit slower and either at increased range (50% or so) or smaller OD A zone. In 9mm, the alloy commander is perfectly matched as to size and weight. Not many are aware that the lwc was originally developed in 9mm. The US military was trying to go 9mm, with a lighter gun, way back in 1950.

Last edited by justme; 07-26-2016 at 06:03 AM.
 
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Old 07-26-2016, 07:17 AM   #2
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My first couple 1911's were old-school, steel, 45acp, 7-shots. Work fine for what they are, but are heavier than need be imo; but when we remember that they're basically late 1890's technology, they're still an impressive accomplishment.

After using lighter-weight guns, I'm now spoiled. I used my first alloy commander in 1992 or 93, and it was both the first non-5" and non-steel-frame 1911 I'd ever tried; and I liked it. Never owned it, it was a friend's who let me use it a few times.

Switching to polymer for my primary-use pistols in 1999, I'm now spoiled weight-wise. The 7-shot, steel 1911 still works as well as ever, it's just too much weight for too little ammo for me personally nowadays.

I still love the 1911, and the newish double-stack rock island is one of the guns that I currently shoot the most. But even though it's considered a "1911", the alloy frame, high-capacity magazine, and 9mm caliber (occasionally 22TCM, but mostly 9mm), make it a very different gun than my old-school 45's; in a good way. I think John Browning would be happy with the new versions.
 
Old 07-26-2016, 09:16 AM   #3
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I dunno if JMB really knew much at all about a handgun's swift and effective use. He was slowfire accurate with a rifle, tho, or so I've read.
 
 
Old 07-26-2016, 09:18 AM   #4
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wifey will probably go with a single stack 9mm lwc. While she has big hands for such a petite gal, they aint THAT big. (ie, able to attain a proper grip on a double stack). The little P938 and micro 9 kimber's fit her hand perfectly. However, they badly need a wider, longer safety lever and a trigger stop-screw. I think that the ambi safety is stupid in a pocket gun. Just something else to snag, break, or get disengaged unintentionally. If you're left handed, you have to get the ambi, obviously, but enlarge the right side and grind down the left side.

Last edited by justme; 07-26-2016 at 09:30 AM.
 
Old 07-26-2016, 12:49 PM   #5
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Colt .45 1911 was a great gun in it's day, but that day has passed. With modern 9MM ammunition, a current DA/SA high capacity 9MM Semi-automatic out performs it hands down. This from someone who carried a Colt Series 70 for almost 20 years. I still am partial to the .45 cartridge, though, and often carry a high capacity G21, when cold weather makes a different carry position a better idea.
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Old 07-26-2016, 01:16 PM   #6
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I don't like DA/SA actions like the Beretta 92 & Walther P38 if that's what you mean, but agree on the 9mm and increased capacity. Like you, my main carry guns (civilian, not LE) were a 70-series govt and a detonics combat master (smaller than an Officer's model) for literally decades.

Nowadays, I want less weight and more bullets; and modern ammo lets the 9mm accomplish things now that it didn't used to be able to. When I tell people that my "puny" 9mm glock 26 is more powerful than my big, heavy, govt-model .45 was with either GI hardball or with its favorite load (the Federal 185 JHP), they can't hardly contain themselves. When I point out that even the tiny CM9 is more powerful than their sacred 1911 was, other old farts my age have a conniption and start looking for a tree to lynch the heretic....
 
Old 07-26-2016, 03:00 PM   #7
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There we disagree. My EDC guns are both DA/SA CZ75b and CZ-75 P01. Back up gun is a CZ82. Or a Ruger LCP, but I try to avoid the Ruger. I like my self defense guns to all shoot the same way, so when I grab whatever I know to just squeeze the trigger. No safety to hit, no seconds hesitation. I do see the DAO as having advantages, but I don't have any trouble transitioning from DA to SA.
 
Old 07-26-2016, 03:45 PM   #8
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the cm9 CAN be made to be more effective than a 4" m19 with 158 gr jhp's in the latter, but it takes special bullets and loads. 2 wound tracks are better than one, and a yawing, lengthwise segment does more damage than a non expanded .357, which is what you get in a 4" barrel (if the load is even remotely controlable in rapidfire) Which is what originally motivated the creation of the 110 gr jhp. The 2200 fps split nose load gets the added benefit of the temporay cavity destroying tissue that the bullet hasn't actually touched, due to hydraulic effects of impacts at such speeds. The vitals between the diverging segments is destroyed. So the wound track is actually an oval one, about 5/8" x 1.5" in cross section, (average). with repeat hit speed as fast as a Makarov. It's quite impressive for "only" a pocket 9mm. If the 165 gr .45 jhp is driven to modern capability, which is 1200 fps in a 4" barrel, it's about as effective as the 9x21 split nose, but it's tough to control in an alloy commander. Almost a 20-factor recoil-momentum. twice as much as the 9x21 split nose. The commander, fully loaded with such ammo, weighs right at twice as much as the fully loaded CM9, with twice as much recoil as the latter has. So about the same difficulty of control. The Mak has the same momentum factor as the 9x21 load, and a lot more weight. However, it's a straight blowback, while the CM9 has the Browning tilting lock, which helps with recoil.

i had a Star locked breech 380 pony which I welded up into a beavertail Tang. Joe will remember it, with Kit gun adjustable sights, modified to work like K38 sights. Cute, with aluminum stock panels. The left side was 1/16" thick, the right side 1/8" thick, with a taper at the bottom, and all corners severely rounded off, for max concealment in the front pants pocket. In it, 20 ozs loaded, I tried the max 380 load from the Lyman manual, 125 gr lrn over 4.5 grs of Unique. Supposedly 1050 fps. OWW! did that sob ever STING the hand! Felt like the 230 gr lrn over 7.2 grs of Unique in an alloy commander (supposedly 900 fps) with the stocks removed. THAT one left the imprint of the gun in the palm of my hand! I managed to center a sparrow with it, at about 5 yds and the only thing findable was head, and wings! I was braced on a fence post, and the bird was above me and to my front.
 
Old 07-26-2016, 03:47 PM   #9
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People who think that I can't handle recoil don't know ol' GK. However, I don't LIKE the way that recoil slows down my repeat hit speed. Different issue entirely.
 
Old 07-26-2016, 03:58 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry G View Post
There we disagree. My EDC guns are both DA/SA CZ75b and CZ-75 P01. Back up gun is a CZ82. Or a Ruger LCP, but I try to avoid the Ruger. I like my self defense guns to all shoot the same way, so when I grab whatever I know to just squeeze the trigger. No safety to hit, no seconds hesitation. I do see the DAO as having advantages, but I don't have any trouble transitioning from DA to SA.
I don't hate the DA/SA, just don't prefer it. Before I bought the LCP in 2009, my pocket gun was a P-64 DA/SA 9x18. I had a smith 5906 that I got because it was such a deal at $289 and used the same magazines as the Camp-9 carbine I already had; but one of my sons liked it and I gave it to him. There's some guys in competitions who do awfully well with the DA/SA Berettas, CZ's, and similar.

Also for institutional purchasing (LE depts, military, whatever) I can see the DA/SA with decocker having some real attraction for simplicity's sake.
 
Old 07-26-2016, 04:16 PM   #11
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I bought two of the P-64's and sent them both back. The guns were brand new and functioned perfectly, but that recoil! Too much for a back up. Also, the trigger pull on both was horrible. So heavy I thought at first the double action was broken, then a feather light single action shot. No way I could transition effectively. On two occasions I accidentally fired the second round while recovering from the recoil of the first round. I know Wolff springs would have helped, but I didn't feel like messing with it when I had bought a slew of CZ 82's.
 
Old 07-26-2016, 05:51 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry G View Post
...functioned perfectly, but that recoil!

...on two occasions I accidentally fired the second round while recovering from the recoil of the first round.
Exact same experience I had. I know from a mathematical, calculated standpoint that it can't be the case, but that thing felt about like my .454; at least back when the .454 had the long barrel. Only about 260-270 ft/lbs iirc, but in a blowback, with those small, hard plastic grips, made it awful. I also had a couple accidental double-taps with mine. It was like a 12-14 lb DA pull, followed by a maybe 2.5 lb SA pull. I tolerated it because no other reasonably-priced gun of similar size offered the same power level with commonly-available ammo in the same size package at the time.

Much happier now with the LCP and CM9 combination. (And much less traumatized. )

I still have it, but it lives a quiet life in a drawer now.
 
Old 07-26-2016, 06:31 PM   #13
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38 super in a lightweight commander. Let the flaming start but I like them.
 
Old 07-26-2016, 08:01 PM   #14
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with a spare barrel and mag in 9mm, for most practice, and you're right. Super brass is a bit expensive and hard to come by. If you load it to top end performance, better only load it once. Every time you fire and re-size it, the brass stretches a bit at the web.
 
Old 07-27-2016, 04:28 AM   #15
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Mine started out as 9mm, Now I am going to build a super on a spare Officers Model frame with a commander slide.
I use super comp brass from Starline.
 
Old 07-27-2016, 04:43 AM   #16
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that's the true rimless brass, correct?
 
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