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Old 05-02-2016, 12:56 PM   #1
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if you'd try it, you'd know 223's better.

but you're WAY too hung up on your bs to ever find out the facts. The .22 unit and the silencer make all the difference in the effing world, but you're too chicken****/cheap/inept to try those, too. 60 gr Nosler Partitions give the 223 plenty enough penetration on deer, if you'd stop shooting them in the azz

Last edited by nikto; 05-02-2016 at 01:02 PM.
 
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Old 05-02-2016, 01:01 PM   #2
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Who? And "they know who they are" is not a rational answer since there is no context in the conversation from which to derive an embedded reference.

It wouldn't make sense for it to be Garand or TerryG that you're referring to as being too cheap; since you constantly blast them for wasting so much money.
 
Old 05-02-2016, 01:10 PM   #3
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what's the point of having a rifle that's not used for anything but big game? Don't you want to know if your loads are adequate? How about if you really CAN lug around the 60+ lbs of bs that you "think" you want to carry if shtf. :-) you 'think" that 223's just bounce off of you at 400 yds, but they wont, I can assure you. Nor will subsonic 60 gr .22's at 100 yds. The fact is that ONE .22 in you, shtf, and it's all over but the crying, dude. To "think" you'll be out there, hunting, with a noisy gun in daylight, is pure bs. To do so will be the end of you. Get real and put some armor into your BOB, cause most people WILL have nothing more than a pistol, pistol caliber carbine, .30 carbine, muzzle loader, pellet rifle, arrows with target points, .22, shotgun, all of which 5 lbs of concealable armor will stop. 15 lbs and $1500 of rifle rated armor make no sense for shtf, but pistol armor does. You won't be using the rifle armor, cause it's just too damned hot and heavy, but you CAN use the pistol armor. I"m probably the only one that would bother to make a set of kevlar boxers, but anyone can get a kevlar vest, $200 or so. I"ve done personal testing and they last FAR longer than the maker's 10 year "limit", if they've not been removed from their plastic seal. Getting them wet or letting them get sunlight on them will weaken them, and sooner rather than later. because of the uncertainty of the armor's effectiveness, kevlar vests often go for very low prices.
 
 
Old 05-02-2016, 03:03 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikto View Post
what's the point of having a rifle that's not used for anything but big game? Don't you want to know if your loads are adequate? How about if you really CAN lug around the 60+ lbs of bs that you "think" you want to carry if shtf. :-) you 'think" that 223's just bounce off of you at 400 yds, but they wont, I can assure you. Nor will subsonic 60 gr .22's at 100 yds. The fact is that ONE .22 in you, shtf, and it's all over but the crying, dude. To "think" you'll be out there, hunting, with a noisy gun in daylight, is pure bs. To do so will be the end of you. Get real and put some armor into your BOB, cause most people WILL have nothing more than a pistol, pistol caliber carbine, .30 carbine, muzzle loader, pellet rifle, arrows with target points, .22, shotgun, all of which 5 lbs of concealable armor will stop. 15 lbs and $1500 of rifle rated armor make no sense for shtf, but pistol armor does. You won't be using the rifle armor, cause it's just too damned hot and heavy, but you CAN use the pistol armor. I"m probably the only one that would bother to make a set of kevlar boxers, but anyone can get a kevlar vest, $200 or so. I"ve done personal testing and they last FAR longer than the maker's 10 year "limit", if they've not been removed from their plastic seal. Getting them wet or letting them get sunlight on them will weaken them, and sooner rather than later. because of the uncertainty of the armor's effectiveness, kevlar vests often go for very low prices.
You talking about that old Aguilar SSS .22 loading? A 60 grain bullet loaded in .22 Lonh brass so as not to have TOO much OAL for a .22LR chamber? My only experience with those was a friend's rebarreled 77/22(1-9 twist). As I recall, it needed a fast twist to stabilize. They were supposed to be OK in 10/22's for function although I never tried them in that. Are they even still available?
 
Old 05-02-2016, 03:11 PM   #5
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google is your friend. they are loaded in .22 SHORT cases. the long and lr case are identical. I did not get to test them more than 1 group each, 1022 and .2245 rugers, 25 yds, and it was pretty quick and dirty, but I saw no sign that they were not stable. the powder used stinks REALLY badly, tho. whew.
 
Old 05-02-2016, 03:17 PM   #6
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here

http://www.ammofast.com/products/agu...-500-rnd-brick
 
Old 05-02-2016, 03:18 PM   #7
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it shoots great in a 1 in 9" AR and .22 unit, I can tell you that much. Which is all I care about using it in. Otherwise, I'd shorten a rifle barrel until regular .22's are subsonic (6-7", depending upon the barrel and the load)
 
Old 05-02-2016, 05:03 PM   #8
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I haven't run across these in years. I remember them giving good accuracy in the 1-9 barrel. Never tried them in an auto,or a standard (slow) rifling twist in a rimfire.
They seemed pretty quiet in a bolt action though. Be worthwhile to score a few bricks for " groceries and pests ".
 
Old 05-02-2016, 05:15 PM   #9
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that would be a lot of pests. 500 rds? sheesh, better leave that area if you need that many in decade
 
Old 05-02-2016, 05:18 PM   #10
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John, i KNOW you know the facts. I dont bother to post anything (other than the occasional jibe) for those 2 twits. I mainly write to the general reader, nobody in particular. I couldn't care less what those 2 twits waste their time and money on. In fact, I hope it gets worse! :-)
 
Old 05-04-2016, 09:40 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikto View Post
John, i KNOW you know the facts. I dont bother to post anything (other than the occasional jibe) for those 2 twits. I mainly write to the general reader, nobody in particular…
If it's to 'nobody in particular', it's to me as much as anybody. That being the case, the reality of “the facts”…

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Originally Posted by nikto View Post
Don't you want to know if your loads are adequate?
I do know; I chronograph them and I use them on actual game animals.

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Originally Posted by nikto View Post
…you 'think" that 223's just bounce off of you at 400 yds, but they won’t, I can assure you…
Who said they think that? Nobody I’ve ever heard.

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Originally Posted by nikto View Post
…Nor will subsonic 60 gr .22's at 100 yds.
Who said they think that, either? Nobody I’ve ever heard.

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Originally Posted by nikto View Post
…The fact is that ONE .22 in you, shtf, and it's all over but the crying, dude. .
Not necessarily. I walked home nearly a mile from the woods with a .22LR HV solid in me one time. Did go to the hospital afterward, but nothing done there that we couldn’t have dealt with at home. Good cleaning with (iirc) betadyne, two stitches and an adhesive bandage. It was 29 years ago and I don’t recall if I got an antibiotic shot, but we have antibiotics at home regardless; no massive surgery, no anesthesia, nothing that couldn’t be done by an even moderately-trained layman. That’s the fact of it.

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Originally Posted by nikto View Post
…Get real and put some armor into your BOB, cause most people WILL have nothing more than a pistol, pistol caliber carbine, .30 carbine, muzzle loader, pellet rifle, arrows with target points, .22, shotgun, all of which 5 lbs of concealable armor will stop...
Don’t know where you live, but in our area, people have a LOT more hunting-related rifle caliber stuff than pistol or archery stuff, and that’s an absolute fact.

Another fact is that most of the people around here who have archery stuff have hunting archery stuff, which means soft armor would protect me about as well as a sheet of newspaper.

And no, soft armor (even IIIA) won’t stop a .30carbine at short to medium ranges. It won’t even stop a softpoint .30 carbine fired from pistol-length barrels; much less fmj, or either one fired from a rifle.

IIIA soft armor also won’t stop a muzzle loader with decent sabot bullets, which most muzzle-loader hunters use nowadays; again, at least those in our area.

IIIA soft armor won’t stop a 12-gauge with decent sabot slugs.

IIIA soft armor won’t stop a .357 carbine round, much less .44 or the .454 carbine that you call a joke.

IIIA soft armor sometimes won’t stop even a .17HMR from a rifle, and IIA soft armor almost never does.

Soft armor - even IIIA - won't stop a whole lot of things, especially in an area like ours where nearly every home has hunting guns with hunting ammo at hand. But hard armor will stop every hunting-legal round, and most non-hunting-legal rounds. That's the fact of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikto View Post
…15 lbs and $1500 of rifle rated armor make no sense for shtf, but pistol armor does…
See above for how many things soft armor won’t protect against. On the hard armor, I have two sets of Level III and two sets of Level IV, none of which were over $500.

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Originally Posted by nikto View Post
…You won't be using the rifle armor, cause it's just too damned hot and heavy,.
Again, some of us actually do stuff. I’ve hiked and shot with my hard armor on; to include wearing all-day stints when hiking and hunting. (We do get some city folk out here during hunting season, and I’m not too proud to do something as dorky-looking as wearing armor to protect myself from their antics; even unintentional antics.) Although I’m certainly no delta-force operator and have no intention of trying to become one, I did walk more than two miles thru the hills this morning and regularly work out with 50-lb dumbbells. I'd worked my way up to 70's at one point, but went back down to 50's two or three months ago. Sue me for being a wimp, but I’m crowding 60, and just happy that I can do things that a lot of guys 20 years my junior can't.


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Originally Posted by nikto View Post
…if you’d try it, you’d know 223’s better.
I do ‘try’ it. I use my 223’s at least monthly; usually more often than that.

I’ve posted video of sub-.30 splits at over a hundred feet, with centerfire ammo and unmagnified optic. So I obviously like the AR carbine, and I prefer the AR carbine. I use it for most things, frankly. But it’s not some magic wand. Even if I’m wearing soft armor, Billy Ray Deerhunter with a .30-06 bolt-action or a .30-30 levergun can kill me just as dead as Rob Pincus with the latest uber-carbine.

Last edited by John in AR; 05-04-2016 at 09:45 AM.
 
Old 05-04-2016, 10:39 AM   #12
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look, John, i never said soft armor would stop a rifle rd, other than a richochet, or one that hit pierced something else first. what I have said, repeatedly, is it's stupid to think you're going to get a choice of guns, once shtf, that's it. The one you got, or the ones you take from the dead, that's going to be it. everything is going to get swarmed, looted, burned. People constantly kid themselves about that, but it's what happened in the LA riots, Katrina, etc, and those were not shtf. there's gonna be no going back, anywhere. you are smart enough to have proper gear. Nobody else here is.
 
Old 05-04-2016, 11:01 AM   #13
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Old 05-04-2016, 11:17 AM   #14
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bet if you checked every gun owner, as to what they'd carry if shtf, a LOT more would pick a 22lr auto over a bolt action in any caliber. either that, or they're too stupid to worry about.
 
Old 05-04-2016, 11:36 AM   #15
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Old 05-04-2016, 12:09 PM   #16
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while it's feasible to get a 22 unit for the 30 ak, you have to mess with the barrel liner, carefully arranging to always put it in the same place (relative to hours on the clock, so to speak) or risk having POI changes. The barrel of it is short, so you don't get much in the way of velocity. also, 22lr recoil is 1/4 of an M4's, but the .30 ak has considerably more recoil than that the 223.. The only 30 ak caliber I've silenced, I was unable to test, (other than firing it down into my pipe and bucket of rocks). A guy bought it before I could actually shoot it, in any comparative testing. So I can't say if the can removes enough of the recoil to make the 22 unit an ok practice item in the 30 ak. But it's guaranteed that if shtf, there will be LOT more 22lr and 223 ammo "in circulation" than 30 AK ammo. :-) If you live in Africa, the AK might be a better choice, but not here.
 
Old 05-04-2016, 12:14 PM   #17
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the 308 is a travesty, really, cause it's just a bipod only clunk when it's canned, and to not have a can will be the height of stupidity, if shtf. Notice non of these dip****s ask John what the times at various ranges are with and without a can, for hits, with no ear protection? cause the times are not even CLOSE, dips. :-) what will happen, with no ear protection, is you'll MISS a lot, just like our troops do, and for the same reason. Regardless of whether or not your conscious mind takes note of the blasts, they ARE still hurting your ears! Flinch is a subsconcious reaction to pain. Nobody with any sense wants to run off game or call in armed enemies and that is exactly what using an unsilenced gun will be doing. So, only stupid people choose the 308. the 308 needs at least 10" of can, or it's not quiet. If you cut the 308's barrel enough to make it handy with a 10" can on it (ie, 11") you wont HAVE any range or power advantage over the 30 AK. :-) cause you'll be getting 150 grs at 2200 fps. (at best). Just the facts, man. Too bad, so sad.
 
Old 05-04-2016, 12:18 PM   #18
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Updated photo, while you don't agree with my choices, at least I'm not talking fantasy!

 
Old 05-04-2016, 12:30 PM   #19
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Quote:
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look, John, i never said soft armor would stop a rifle rd, other than a richochet, or one that hit pierced something else first. what I have said, repeatedly, is it's stupid to think you're going to get a choice of guns, once shtf, that's it...
Not picking a fight, just pointing out things could get somebody hurt if they just accept internet posts and don't research for themselves. You did say that a .30 carbine, muzzle loader, etc, won’t penetrate soft armor; and that’s just not true. A lot of handgun-caliber carbines also will. Not just magnum-caliber handguns either. My 9mm carbine launches several loads above 1600 fps, and one at over 1800fps. Since I know that a .357” bullet at 1900fps will penetrate IIIA armor, I strongly suspect that a .356” bullet at 1825fps can penetrate most soft armor, if not all of it.

Someone taking the advice presented here and buying soft armor for the purpose of defending against those guns, could very possibly get killed for making that decision.
 
Old 05-04-2016, 03:27 PM   #20
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Updated photo, while you don't agree with my choices, at least I'm not talking fantasy!

There is still something about an M- Garand. The two I bought from CMP were well worth the money. And hey, I have a GI Tankers holster just like that.
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