andy

The world's militaries are waking up to the fact that 99.9999% of rifle shots never hit ANYBODY, and that most hits are non lethal, regardless of caliber. There's no point in weighing down your troops with heavy guns and ammo that contribute essentially NOTHING to overal performance. The 10 or more lbs saved can go towards carrying something EFFECTIVE, like water, water filter, better sleeping gear, medical kit, etc. Most troops never succeed in killing or capturing a single other soldier. So what rifle or load they use is mostly just for morale purposes.

Aslan

Which is why, of course they're deploying as many as they can to Afghanistan...the whole designated marksman thing.

Somebody needs to get up to speed with current events before posting...

Chippathingy

Yeah, well...1,000 dead hadji's does wonders for MY morale.


I don't know that weight carried really applies to RA anymore.
With light and fast Stryker brigades being en vogue its really not a matter of humping Xlbs of gear 20 miles on foot like WWII.
I know a few guys driving Stryker that really dont hump too much.

They drive up kick ass in the general vicinity, jump back in and back to base.
Rinse and repeat.

They pretty much carry whatever small arms (and as many mags) as they want, while still maintaining some semblance of TO & E.

No complaints of the M4 or the SS109.

Terry G

Andy,are you saying Don't arm our troopers with rifles, just give them an extra canteen or two? I've gotta say my eyes spun around a few times when I read this. Every Soldier in Infantry Combat know's his weapon is his life. It's been forty years, but I was never without my '16. Sleeping eating, S******G, even fornicating it was with me. I don't believe our guy's feel much differently today.

Garand

As a young infanteer, while deployed in the Middle East, I captured 2 infiltrators to the camp during my deployment, trying to sneak in to steal. Both times I was carrying a Canadian version of the British 9mm Submachine gun. One, which tried to jump me, I had to buttstroke, the SMG served its purpose

Aslan

Note, I'm not affiliated with LaRue Tactical in any way, other than as a customer, but thought this was noteworthy. It's about their 7.62 OBR and the recent sniper competition.

If this breaks some kind of vendor related rules, feel free to take it down.

LaRue Tactical
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
LaRue Tactical Newsletter
International Sniper Conference OBR wins.
November 2010
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Team LaRue folks,



I try not to bug y'all, but this is news I gotta share.



Bottom line, the top teams at this year's International Sniper Competition 2010 at Ft. Benning were using our LaRue OBRs in 7.62. We know and understand that the trigger puller was 95% of the winning equation, but we're still tickled those locked-on trigger pullers chose to go in with LaRue-made rifles.



See whole story below.



ML



News - Local - The Bayonet
Friday, Oct. 22, 2010

World's top snipers named
By KRISTIN MOLINARO / kristin.molinaro@us.army.mil

The results are in from the International Sniper Competition held at Fort Benning Oct. 11-15.

The top three teams in each category, as well as the overall winning team, were announced Friday at an awards banquet honoring the competitors.

The overall winners, SFC Edward Homeyer and SFC Chance Giannelli, from the Special Forces Sniper School at Fort Bragg, N.C., scored 1,258 points out of a possible 1,507 during the competition.

SGT Andrew McElroy and SSG Caleb Perkins, of 3rd Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment took third place in the open class. Top shooters from across the globe competed in the 10th annual International Sniper Competition, including teams from Taiwan, Canada, Spain, Germany and Ireland.

Thirty-two teams competed this year, including seven foreign, three law enforcement and 22 U.S. military teams. The two-man teams competed in 14 events including a sniper stalk, urban shooting and orienteering exercises, firing under stressful conditions and other tests of marksmanship and sniper skills.

In keeping with last year's competition, the teams were divided into two categories, service class and open class. Service class competitors fired 7.62 mm or smaller rounds as a primary or secondary weapon system, the open class was for teams firing rounds in a caliber larger than 7.62 mm.

Last year's winners were a Marine Corps team from the Scout Sniper School at Camp Pendleton, Calif., which won the service class and the overall title, and a team from the 194th Armored Brigade, which won the open class.

Overall Winners by points:

Team # 26 (D CO SWTG) Special Forces Sniper School

Service Class

1.Team # 26 (D CO SWTG) Special Forces Sniper School

2.Team # 30 USMC Scout Sniper (Camp Pendelton, Calif.)

3.Team # 20 USMC (SSC DET, Hawaii)

Open Class

1. Team # 23 (USASOC)

2. Team # 25 (D CO SWTG) Special Forces Sniper School

3. Team # 19 (HHC, 3/75 Ranger Regt.)





And this too ...



FORT BENNING, Ga. (Army News Service, Oct. 19, 2010) -- A Soldier team from the Army Special Operations Command took top honors at the 10th Annual International Sniper Competition here.

The competition, which wrapped up Oct. 15, included 32 sniper teams, each gunning for the title of best sniper team in the world.

The winning team included Sgt. 1st Class Edward Hoymeyer and Sgt. 1st Class Chance Giannelli, from the Special Forces Sniper School at Fort Bragg, N.C. The two scored 1,258 points out of a possible 1,507 during the competition. They were also the only team to receive a perfect score on the final event of the competition.

"It was an awesome event," Giannelli said. "It was the epitome of sniper competition. Every different country sends their best. It felt great to actually win the event."

"It felt pretty good, it's really nice to go and test yourself," Homeyer said. "It's a testament to our training and the school. On that day, we were the best, but competition was close. We could go out and do it again and someone else could win."

During the competition, the two-man teams competed in a total of 14 events. Those events included, among other things, a sniper stalk, urban shooting and orienteering exercises, firing under stressful conditions and other tests of marksmanship and sniper skills.

In keeping with last year's competition, the teams were divided into two categories, service class and open class. The service class competitors fired 7.62 mm or smaller rounds as a primary or secondary weapon system. The open class was for teams firing rounds in a caliber larger than 7.62 mm.

The 72-hour competition ran virtually non-stop, with only two four-hour rest breaks during its three days, said Lt. Col. J.C. Miller, commander of 2nd Battalion, 29th Infantry Regiment, 197th Infantry Brigade, whose C Company conducts sniper school training.

Six of the events were held at night, and this year's competition included a greater emphasis on real-world scenarios and limited sleep, said event planners.

The added stress and fatigue factors added a new level to the competition not seen in past years, said Master Sgt. Michael Snyder, noncommissioned officer in charge of the sniper school.

"We wanted to simulate what guys are doing in combat. They are going to be tired, getting little sleep and still be expected to do one mission after another," he said. "We are getting more combat-focused."

During the 2009 competition, competitors averaged eight hours of sleep each day of competition, Snyder said. This year, the average was 50 percent less than that, and the schedule was more sporadic -- with many teams catching some shut-eye in the holding areas in between the events.

Some of the more challenging events in the competition -- as cited by several competitors -- included such challenges as shooting on non-illuminated targets at night and the stress shoot, which included a timed run down an 800-meter lane, stopping at various points to fire on targets, collect data and evacuate casualties.

A new event in this year's event was the "loop hole." That event tested the snipers ability to shoot from a third story rafter, through a three-inch hole and strike a target 150 meters away.

"In competition, you will go at a faster pace than you would in combat," said competitor Staff Sgt. Kyle Maples, a five-time combat veteran. "In some situations, you take enemy fire, you are going to get the adrenaline up, you are going to be breathing heavy. So an event like (the stress shoot) is pretty close to simulating what it would actually be like in combat."

Maples competed service class in the competition for the 325th Airborne Infantry Regiment, 82nd Airborne Division. Maples and his partner, Staff Sgt. Brent Davis, were the only pair to score 35 out of 35 points on the night range estimation event.

"It's more realistic," said Maples, of the combat scenario related events. "A majority of our operations in theater are done at night. Everybody has the saying 'we own the night,' and it's true. We have night-vision capability and the enemy doesn't right now."

U.S. Coast Guard Petty Officer 2nd Class Joshua J. Harris, also a participant, said he was glad to have the opportunity to learn from the competition.

"In every course of fire here, our training and tactics were tested and our weaknesses were exposed," Harris said. "This showed me where I need to work. In observing and talking to the other teams, like the Irish Defense Forces, Special Forces, and others, I learned a few new ideas and little tricks."

Pasadena Police Officer and former Marine, Brandon R. Largent, also felt this competition helped him identify places he could improve.

"This competition has highlighted areas of weakness that I have never fully realized," he said.

Participants in the competition came from the Army, Air Force, Marine Corps and Coast Guard, including teams from U.S. Army Special Operations Command, 10th Mountain Division, 75th Ranger Regiment, Army National Guard and the 1st Marine Division. Additionally, several civilian law enforcement teams participated as well as several international teams.

(S.L. Standifird writes the Joint Hometown News Service. Kristin Molinaro writes for the Bayonet at Fort Benning, Ga.)

===================

The Service category champions (7.62mm) were armed with a 16-inch and an 18-inch Larue Objective Battle Rifle -- yes, both shooters were swinging gas-operated weapons. Winners:

snipers



CLICK HERE to go to the OBR Website



OBR

Garand

So where did the Canadians finish??????

Aslan

I suspect they did very well, they are known as very proficient at their art.

But then again, none of this is even possible since snipers have to take a long time to set up and measure distances, and never run and shoot, or have to carry their stuff around. (which was a big part of the competition.)

Unless our temporarily banned expert is wrong (again)?

Garand

lolololol

themadride

So, the "world's militaries" are going to go to war against one another without weapons then? Or since you mention water, maybe you envision battles based on super-soaker waterguns?

7of7

I think paintballs would be better.... no one gets killed, they just get removed from the area by the refs...

Aslan

Studies have found harsh language to be very effective...

AustDeathMachine

Do what?

With the feeble performance of the 5.56 overseas at long distance and the deployment of new or redeployment of various platforms for the 7.62NATO.

What cave has this dude "andy" been hiding in the past 10years?

Garand

In a federal "vacation resort"!

AustDeathMachine

Must have spent a lot of time in solitary too then.

Though I also doubt he must have been able to keep up with weapons performance, good or bad, in the sandbox while in general population.

cutter

Come on guys! Andy's right. We need to stop issuing all these useless guns and bullets to our troops. Instead we need to equip them with wheelbarrow mounted, tactical slingshots and grenades...lots of grenades.

AustDeathMachine

Oh no banned again?

DJetAce

Has anyone in the DOD ever thought of researching the Gerlich principle for the 5.56?

Say the 5.56 cartridge was necked up to 6mm or 6.5. And the bore 'coned' down to 5.56 or even 5mm, and allowed the bullet to be 'squeezed' down the bore (as the Gerlich principle would do with small flanges to allow the bullet to be resized down.)

Add to that a Glock style polygon rifling to get another 50 fps.

That way, same bolt, same receiver, etc.. except for a new barrel.

And allow the M4 to achive 3300 fps (like the origional AR gave) for the same weight bullet. Keep in mind the fragmentation of the orgional 5.56 round in Vietnam was very very good at stopping the VC.

John in AR

I'd be curious what's the real effect polygonal gain-twist rifling like armstech uses, or used to use. They claimed substantial velocity increases with it; something like the velocity of a normal 20" gun from a 14.5" M4 iirc. It's been several years ago I read about them, but it struck me as a very good idea for .223 carbines if it really provided the increases they claimed.

gnslngr

Fairly decent analysis of this debate is to be found in the latest above referenced publication. As for the constantly reference factional percentage of expediture to kills...there were a few agendized statistical allowance adjustments made to get the fantastical "miss" quotas.
The ideal can always be hedged, but along with the "debate"...real ife logistical issues get in the way of the new kids..6.8/6.5;and I really like the 6.5. 5.7 doesn't work for me, but it will definately kill you also. Introduce
barricades/cover , and all the 22's go away.


...cept Andy's ofcourse.

AustDeathMachine

You know I don't know if anyone saved a copy of it anywhere but back on the Patriot Network, pre-911 maybe?, I did a fake "Gun Kid Obit" about him keeling over after hearing the military started reissueing rifles in .308/7.62mmNATO.

While not general issue but for DMR or Sniper use today I wonder how he's been feeling?

Garand

Yep, there are times that I really miss his "perspective" on life. Now that he's over 60, I wonder how he lives?

AustDeathMachine

I don't know. IIRC he was gettting some sort of Federal Disability from the Social Security Admin.

How him getting another felony conviction effects that I have no idea.


I just find his declarations on the .308Win being dead amusing since both new rifles at least DMR's and MG's are being fielded.

I hope the M243 SAW gets replaced in total by the M240 series. I've heard and read too uch about the M243 crapping out at the wrong time.

Aslan

There's a whole industry around .308's on the AR style platform for the military. There are units fielding the SCAR 17, plus LWRC and LMT 308's are in use. LaRue has the OBR in 7.62 that I'd really like to get.

The 7.62 (.308) is far from dead, but it will not be replacing the 5.56 any time soon.

AustDeathMachine

I don't think so either.

While I do think a 6.-"Something or other" like the 6.5Gr or 6.8SPC might offer a bit better performance in a long range ballistic way. I don't see it overcoming the cost of making the switch.

I also think we have pretty much come a dead end in what cartridge firing small arms can provide in combinations of designs and materials. At least for what is acceptable to our military.

Terry G

Each area of combat seem's to call for a different weapon. In the relatively shorter range confrontations, the M-16A1/.556MM was a fine weapon once the bugs were worked out of the rifle and the ammunition. In the desert distances pushed out the range and complaints were raised about the 62 gr. projectile not having the range or punch needed. Now Afghanistan has the M-16A2 and M-4 comfortably outranging the AK-47's, but finding a .308/7.62MM more to the task. I would think a mix of supporting arms such as the General Purpose Machine Guns, Automatic Grenade Launchers, and the Designated Marksman Concept would rule out the need for a new rifle for every theatre of battle. An old example of arms and areas of conflict would be the M-1 Carbine. FIghting the Japanese at jungle type ranges, the Marines and Soldiers liked the Carbine much more than their Brothers in Europe who found the weapon too short on range and ineffective for punching through cover.

Garand

Call me old fashioned, but if the poop ever hit the fan I want a .30 caliber, 147 grain bullet moving down range in the rifle I'm carrying, anywhere!