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Old 10-31-2016, 07:07 AM   #1
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if I couldn't have AR, for some reason

I'd pick a silenced folding AK in 223, then a silenced, folder mini-14, all to get concealable 223 with .22 unit. That's how vital it is. If i couldn't have a 223, i'd pick a silenced 9mm carbine and a silenced 22lr handgun. Not sure which one, since I'd just never accept such a limitation. I'd probably just silence a .22 Pappose, get all the component parts for the usual shorty AR, trigger job .22 unit, scope, silencer, etc and use the .22 to get an AR/M4, if shtf.
 
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Old 10-31-2016, 10:55 AM   #2
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You can't have one of those either, cause your a felon, or did you forget your place in the big scheme of things?
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Old 10-31-2016, 02:14 PM   #3
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I like AKs. For suppressed purposes,even after the Soviets fielded the 5.45x39/AK 74 series,the 5.45 , when suppressed;was less than optimal. They continued to use and issue suppressed 7.62x39 AKMs to troops requiring suppressed intermediate rifles until they got that 9x39 (Vityaz?)up and running.
I like the 5.45/5.56 -in full sized rifles. In suppressed and/or SBR trim though? I consider most the loadings to give up TOO much when suppressed,or when barrel length gets below 14.5-16 inches-with the 18-20 being my preference. YMMV.
 
 
Old 10-31-2016, 04:22 PM   #4
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10" barrel still gets 60 grs to 2500 fps, which is 850 ft lbs, plenty of power. A suppressed 223 bullet, subsonic just isn't enough more powerful to bother with, except in rare cases, than the 60 gr Subsonic Aquila 22 load, fired thru the AR's .22 unit. If you somehow just had to brain a cow or deer at more than 50 yds, but less than 100 yds and you have a 1 in 7 twist, then the 100 gr subsonic 223 be of value, but why can't you get inside 50 yds.? Why would you give up the .22 unit? that is such a pita to work with the barrel liner in the 30 ak. Why give up the GI parts, rd, mags, scope mounts, concealability when taken down?
 
Old 10-31-2016, 04:23 PM   #5
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18" of barrel and 7" of silencer do not a handy package make. A noisy gun is a very bad idea if shtf. you'll end up fighting LOTS of people that you could have avoided and they'll have FAR too good an idea where you are, too.
 
Old 10-31-2016, 04:40 PM   #6
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Melvin, what makes you think you will last more than 5-6 hours if SHTF?
 
Old 10-31-2016, 05:34 PM   #7
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Gentlemen,its a discussion. Just me- I LIKE the modularity of the AR . Part of my opinion is related to what you stated: Yes an8-10 inch AR barrel can get a 60 grainer to 2500 FPS. And a 7-10.5 inch AK pistol barrel gets a 123-125 grainer to between 1900 and 2215 FPS (with my M92 pistol chronographing at 2185-2210 from a xold barrel to a hot barrel) and accurate to a surprising(given the AK/Krink type rear sight).
For short(er)barrels not bad. In a suppressed weapon, that generally involves subsonic(or at LEAST heavier/slower ammo).
5.56 and 5.45 both do better from a minimum threshold muzzle velocity to do best what they do. Both are more dramatically affected by shortening the barrel.The slower MV -while not turning the .223 into an airsoft DOES affect everything else. THIS is really the whole reason for calibers like the .300 BLK(or the bigger bore semi wildcat loads)that were specifically made for better reliability(due to similar case geometry)in a (then) standard AR/M16/M4/M4gery Maxwell.THAT is where I actually agree with you on the VERY good utility of an AR platform-even though I actually prefer(as in muscle memory)other firearms.
Honestly, I would NOT feel unarmed with an AR/M16/M4 type rifle...but again,Id want an 18-20 inch barrel and prefer a full length gas system.... THAT is another issue: most carbine and pistol sized ARs have a tendency to heat up MUCH faster as well has stressing the system. Newer ones are better,but I am a creature of habits,memories good and bad;with experiences that also run both ways.
 
Old 10-31-2016, 06:18 PM   #8
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if you have to get the barrel hot, you'll be dead in short order, cause there will be no help coming for you. you'll either kill them, run them off, or slip away, in less than 10 shots, or you'll die shortly thereafter, cause you're either missing too much, or up against too many enemies, or both
 
Old 10-31-2016, 06:19 PM   #9
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nobodys stuck with ball ammo. the 223 softpoint has plenty of power, more is not needed and you pay a serious penalty to get it (ie, no .22 unit and no ability to use GI rd, mags, parts.
 
Old 10-31-2016, 06:38 PM   #10
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Again,I like BOTH calibers. And I run SP's in both,with a preference for the heavier weights in the 7.62. I simply prefer one caliber if an SBR(or if a suppressor is an option),and consider BOTH calibers to be better in that 16-20inch for the 7.62,18-20 for the 5.56.
And,reliability when hot and/or stressed-although not a sought out/preferred method of contact-IS actually desirable for me....." No plan survives initial contact intact" ,so if needed I would rather have something I can keep running longer(if I HAVE to) under rough/dirty/overheated conditions) with fewer necessary immediate action breaks in the same time frame(assuming of course,I am still alive).
None of us are immortal. In the words of Deadpool " I'm No hero and I'm DEFINITELY not super"... Just like the tools for a job that work cave-man simple.
 
Old 11-03-2016, 06:09 PM   #11
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to give up the Ar's many advantages, to get some bs, never-proven superior durabilty claim, is ridiculous. You wont be wrapping it in rice straw and burying it for 10 years, in a swamp. You'll have motor oil for lubing, and gas for solvent, for many more years than you're likely to survive shtf. You wont be getting blown up by grenades, mines, shells, etc, the way troops do and there will be other guns to take from the dead, anyway. hundreds of them in any given area, and thousands of rds of ammo.

Last edited by justme; 11-03-2016 at 06:18 PM.
 
Old 11-04-2016, 07:28 AM   #12
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I much prefer the AR, but if ďallĒ I had was an AK, an M1 carbine, or even a 9mm carbine, I wouldnít be terrified for my life. I like the controls better on the AR, but the M1 carbine has a substantial weight advantage; mine weighs only 5.2 lbs empty. It also has a substantially better trigger than most off-the-shelf ARís and AKís; not because itís so great, but simply because so many off-the-shelf ARís and AKís come with horrible triggers. It doesnít have the range of an AR, but it has more range than Iím ever likely to need for defensive use. It doesnít have the power of an AR, but it has right at the same power as a .44 magnum handgun, which is plenty for defensive use imo. Main problems with the M1 carbine is that theyíve gotten stupid expensive nowadays. I got intrigued by the first one I tried in the late 70ís and got hooked when I got a deal on a couple re-imported ones in the late 90ís; but they were bargains back then. I paid $159 and $169 for mine iirc. Nowadays, they seem to sell for as much as an AR, and thatís goofy.

The AK, I really donít like; but just because I donít like it doesnít mean itís not still plenty capable. I took one of Rob Pincusí carbine classes this past summer, and the one guy who consistently outshot me all day was using an AK in 5.45x39; so in trained hands, itís plenty capable.

A pistol-caliber carbine can give the added convenience of using the same ammo and even the same magazines as the pistol, if you get the right combination. It can also give the benefit of instantly swapping between subsonic loadings that give .45acp-type power while being pellet-gun quiet, up to high-velocity loadings that give the power of a .41 magnum handgun; with no conversion kits or gas-system adjustments. I consistently get 730-750 ft/lbs from my camp-9 using corbon 100-grain stuff.

If a person had a handgun/carbine combo in something like .357 sig, .400corbon or maybe even .22TCM, they could possibly do even better than that. I canít say for sure as I donít have such a combo and have never chronoíed carbines in any of those calibers.


Short version is, it boils down to ďif I get to chooseĒ, then I choose an AR. But if my choices excluded the AR, thereíd be others that I could live pretty comfortably with.
 
Old 11-04-2016, 07:36 AM   #13
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You know,I used to wonder if it would be possible to do ANOTHER(besides that 5.7 neck down from a .30 Carbine case) .30 Carbine based cartridge. I know we're dealing with a comparatively low case volume,but given advances since the 1950's in powders,metalurgy etc; has there been any other attempts at forming a bottleneck 6.5-7mm x33?? Anything to keep weight the same,but give a longer bullet design and more efficient case volume might be worth considering....
 
Old 11-04-2016, 07:52 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gripper View Post
You know,I used to wonder if it would be possible to do ANOTHER(besides that 5.7 neck down from a .30 Carbine case) .30 Carbine based cartridge. I know we're dealing with a comparatively low case volume,but given advances since the 1950's in powders,metalurgy etc; has there been any other attempts at forming a bottleneck 6.5-7mm x33?? Anything to keep weight the same,but give a longer bullet design and more efficient case volume might be worth considering....
Itíd probably be one those things that (like a lot of really-capable wildcats) is doable, but not profitable or practical. Case-capacity wise, the .30C should be capable of plenty, since even factory 22TCM stuff hits 2,800fps from a carbine with its much-shorter case.

The downsides would be that it would take a lot of units sold for it to be worthwhile for any manufacturer to mess with, and theyíd be competing in the same market space against the .223 and the x39 calibers. The M1carbine platform (as much as I like it) just simply doesnít have nearly as big a following as AR, AK, or even lever-action guns for that matter; so that also works against the economic viability of a new cartridge in the platform. Add the fact that the round would be too long to fit in a regular semiauto handgun for commonality purposes (like the 22TCM, 357 sig, etc can offer), and I just canít see it happening. Would like to see it, but donít expect to.

That said, even the old .30 carbine round itself is fine for me personally. A 110-grain bullet with around 900 ft/lbs behind it is well within my comfort zone for defensive-power needs. It just kind of sucks that the guns and ammo have both gotten so expensive. When I bought mine, I could buy factory fmj stuff for $200 per thousand, and JHP stuff for $320 or so per thousand. Not a huge bargain, but not bad; certainly better than what they cost nowadays. I donít even shoot mine recreationally any more.
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Old 11-04-2016, 01:11 PM   #15
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I would probably choose an SKS over the AK. It's more accurate, maintenance is about the same, and the so called paratrooper model is short enough to handle easily. It gives up the high capacity, but with ten round stripper clips you can maintain a decent rate of fire. In 7.63X39MM you also have a pretty good punch. An added plus is, like most commie weapons, it's built to take a lot of abuse.
 
Old 11-04-2016, 01:15 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by justme View Post
to give up the Ar's many advantages, to get some bs, never-proven superior durabilty claim, is ridiculous. You wont be wrapping it in rice straw and burying it for 10 years, in a swamp. You'll have motor oil for lubing, and gas for solvent, for many more years than you're likely to survive shtf. You wont be getting blown up by grenades, mines, shells, etc, the way troops do and there will be other guns to take from the dead, anyway. hundreds of them in any given area, and thousands of rds of ammo.
The problem with your argument is that your opinions are all theoretical. You have no hands on experience with AR's, AK's, SKS's, M-1's, M-1 Carbine's, etc. Therefore your opinions have no validity. You opinions on even airsoft are questionable, since you have offered no proof you even own one.
 
Old 11-04-2016, 01:17 PM   #17
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I still run a Chicom Spiker and a 1950 Tula laminate. I DO like the SKS,and never found stripper clips hard to reload with quickly. You can get down in a nice LOW prone position as well... I would not turn down a deal on a Paratrooper shorty with the side mount scope base.
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Old 11-04-2016, 01:43 PM   #18
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Well, in one example of "weird timing"... I got an email notification from munireusa today of what looked like a good deal on Federal .30C softpoints for $18.46 per box.

Pretty good - until I saw it was a box of 20 instead of the old boxes of 50... That's more than $900 per thousand.
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Old 11-04-2016, 03:12 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gripper View Post
I still run a Chicom Spiker and a 1950 Tula laminate. I DO like the SKS,and never found stripper clips hard to reload with quickly. You can get down in a nice LOW prone position as well... I would not turn down a deal on a Paratrooper shorty with the side mount scope base.
Gripper, is this what you mentioned?
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Old 11-04-2016, 03:30 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by John in AR View Post
Well, in one example of "weird timing"... I got an email notification from munireusa today of what looked like a good deal on Federal .30C softpoints for $18.46 per box.

Pretty good - until I saw it was a box of 20 instead of the old boxes of 50... That's more than $900 per thousand.
The cheapest I have seen lately is Sportsman's Guide offering 50 rounds SP PPU at $21.65. I owned a Universal.30 Carbine way back when. It continually malfunctioned, usually from shaking itself loose in the stock after a few rounds. Too bad, because I owned a G.I. one that worked fine but I had no chance of bringing it back to the U.S.
 
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